Starter conversion

[NHUSA]

long story
I used to start my 19 with the crank. - no starter.
It ran on the mag but I had a 12 volt battery for powering the coils during starting, the LED stop lights, and cell phone.

When I put a 27 motor in the car to save the 19 motor, I wanted to continue to use the crank but it wouldn’t engage (comments later) so decided to put the starter in it and used some wire from a 6 volt jumper cable to drop the voltage. It worked OK until I was getting ready to put the car in storage for a short time while we moved and the starter didn’t work. After checking and rechecking the wires I figured that it was the starter so I purchased a replacement and it still didn’t work until I changed all the wires using 12 volt wires. It spun like never before and made me concerned about damaging something, but I run out of time and the car went into storage.

I finally have time - moved the family and cars to NC, and bought a house — so I’m almost ready to address the 1919 starter issue.
I remember seeing instructions about how to rewire an old 6 volt starter to work on 12 volts and thought there were a couple people willing to do it for others for a nominal fee but I can’t find either. I have two working starters and would prefer to have someone do the starter rewire but am willing to tackle it myself if needed. Can someone give me guidance?

Later Comments as mentioned — the front pulley on the 27 motor was loose so I put a split pulley on before installing the motor. The crank would only engage for about a quarter of a turn. I tried a bunch of stuff like replacing the pin, the spider on the crank handle, and the bushing for the handle without success. I think I read that this was a common problem with split pulleys at one time. Anyone know it the pulleys were a problem?
If it is true, I might be able to become a cranky old man again.

[NHUSA]

Another question does adding a Bendix spring to the circuit really work?

[RajoRacer]

Yes - there were some funky fan drive pulleys on the market that would not engage properly and NO - installing a Bendix spring in line to "drop" voltage does nothing but get F'n hot to the touch !

[frontyboy]

If you do add the spring to the starter circuit, if placed under the hood, you get a under hood trouble light!!!

frontyboy

[Luke]

... I remember seeing instructions about how to rewire an old 6 volt starter to work on 12 volts and thought there were a couple people willing to do it for others for a nominal fee but I can’t find either. I have two working starters and would prefer to have someone do the starter rewire but am willing to tackle it myself if needed. Can someone give me guidance?

Fred,

Starters are fairly straightforward to 'properly' change from 6V to 12V. This is achieved by re-wiring the field coils from series-parallel to all in series. This link should provide much of what you need to know: https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/7 ... 1490632798

FYI I quite agree with Steve re the bendix spring, don't bother!

If you don't want to work on the starter yourself another alternative might be to try Jeff here: https://modeltstarters.com/ , I believe he will fit completely new field coils etc for 12V operation.

Luke.

[babychadwick]

The starter on our, I say our as I am the third owner (dad, mom, me) has been running 12v for over 40 years now. A good original starter handles 12v fine. The bendix is the weak link. Invest in a new one especially a new spring and don't forget to retard when starting.

[NHUSA]

Luke. Thanks for the links. It looks like I can remember things from years ago (2017) because that was a thread that I posted the conversion info, but I am trying to remember what I did this morning.

I think the 6 to 12 volt starter conversion guy is Steve Jelf so it will be awhile before he will be making another batch.

[John Codman]

How is wire from a 6V jumper cable going to drop voltage? It would be bigger then 12V cable.

[RajoRacer]

Jeff Stevenson is the 12 volt conversion guy - our co-administrator here !

[NHUSA]

John I’m trying to remember something I did years ago…
I do not like spending money so it might have been a cheap 12 volt jumper cable.
All I know is that it was thin, got hot when I started the car, and finally failed.


Good to know about Jeff - it’s a bit pricy for this old retired guy so I might try to convert a starter that I have

[Art M]

The polarity of each coil must have the proper orientation. My belief is that two of the coils must be rearranged in order to have N S N S coil polarity.

Art Mirtes

[Oldav8tor]

You've already bought two starters so this advice is a bit late, but maybe someone else is in a similar position.

I strongly recommend to anyone running 12 volts that they consider installing a modern, 12 volt, WOSP geared starter. Unlike the original Ford starter, my WOSP starter has been 100% reliable over several years and thousands of miles.

If you don't have a starter, the WOSP is $475 from Snyders where by comparison, the "Best quality" Ford starter with rebuilt Bendix is $600 from Langs.

[Gen3AntiqueAuto]

Another question does adding a Bendix spring to the circuit really work?

I tested this in the past and "nope" - doesn't do a thing. Resistance is near zero.

[Gen3AntiqueAuto]

For those wondering about all this 6 volt wire 12 volt wire craziness - I did a video on it (I know, you're shocked).
My recommendation to the OP would be - put a 6 volt battery in it and run a stock starter, or put a 12v starter in it, rewired to series or the Wosp one.

https://youtu.be/j2MpvCMLss0

There's no reason a 6 volt system can't work right.

[John kuehn]

For what it’s worth my 3 T’s that have a 6 volt system with the starter cables I bought from the major suppliers several years ago turn over just as fast or a little faster as in the proper cables video with a 6 volt system. They were the same size that were on the cars originally. The insulation had gotten brittle and coming off so I replaced them. I guess the suppliers were right as far as the size goes.
Thanks for the video. I haven’t seen that one before.

[AdminJeff]

Yup, I've done a sh$&load of 12v starter conversions. Pushing 50 of them now. It's not an easy task by any means, but if you have patience and skill, you can get the job done. If you do try it, save yourself the hassle and start with a new set of field coils and a new starter post and new brushes. Rewrapping old field coils will only get you so far as there is no easy way to replace the paper insulators between all the field coil windings. That's where the shorts occur over time as the paper breaks down. When that happens, nothing good comes from it.

I've perfected what I feel is the best procedure for doing these 12v conversions posted on my website for the world to see. Note: this isn't an advert for my services, merely an education for those who profess that there's no harm in using 12v on 6v starters. There are a few pics there (I've seen many more!) showing the damage done over time by a 6v starter pushed to the limit by a 12v battery:

https://modeltstarters.com/12v-starters/

Many folks mistakenly think converting to 12v will solve their problems.... I respectfully, completely and strongly disagree. Unless you live in Australia or New Zealand and/or 6v batteries are hard to come by, or you inherit a car already converted to 12v, there are literally no good reasons for running 12v. A well maintained starter & charging system, and a battery that is charged by a 6v Voltage Regulator (not a cutout) will last several, trouble-free years and reliably start most, if not all Model T engines. I know that taking this position doesn't any sell any of my 12v conversions, but it's my honest opinion after doing this professionally now for many years.

As always, your mileage will vary!

Jeff

[jsaylor]

so I put a split pulley on before installing the motor. The crank would only engage for about a quarter of a turn. I tried a bunch of stuff

I found the roll pin diameter to big to properly fit the crank spider. A large round file opening up the notches on the spider solved that problem.

[speedytinc]

so I put a split pulley on before installing the motor. The crank would only engage for about a quarter of a turn. I tried a bunch of stuff

I found the roll pin diameter to big to properly fit the crank spider. A large round file opening up the notches on the spider solved that problem.

Its not the roll pin.
The replacement pulley isnt machined deep enough for the crank ratchet to property engage. Like most repop parts, they fall just short.
One can remove enough material on a lathe to work as intended. I do that instead of modifying a good ratchet.

[AdminJeff]

Another question does adding a Bendix spring to the circuit really work?

It completes the circuit... and it gets HOT when engaging the starter. But it does little to mitigate the damage done by using 12V on a 6v starter.

Jeff

[babychadwick]

Those stating there is nothing wrong with a 6v system in good working order are just as correct as saying there is nothing wrong with a good working 12v system (in a car up till now designed for 12v). The same can be said regarding jumper boxes and cables. There is no reason to carry either of these in any car that is in proper working order but how many of us carry one or the other? For me I run 12v because should something happen I can find or give assistance. I have used my cars to jump modern stranded cars. I've been able to get a fast charge on a 12v battery resulting in my being able to reach my destination. With little to no club activities when I am out my interaction is with what is available and these days that's 12v. If you only drive once in a while, a few miles (under 100/day), or stick to tours then great. If you are a bit more independent it's just something to consider when thinking 6v vs 12v.

[TXGOAT2]

A starter spring used as a resistor will have very little resistance when cold. It will quickly get very hot when the starter is engaged and cranking, which will increase its resistance substantially. It will NOT materially reduce the hard engagement of the starter drive resulting from running a 6 volt starter on 12 volts. It WILL reduce the cranking voltage /current at the starter. But that happens anyway when overloading a 12 volt battery with a 6 volt starter.

[TXGOAT2]

Using a 12 volt battery to achieve 5 to 6 cranking volts with a worn out 6 volt starter and junky cables is not a good practice.