Oil usage

[Will]

First a little back info, 2022 I had hernia surgery and then in 2023 I had shoulder surgery so my 1919 Touring car has not seen a lot of use. The engine had a complete rebuild from Gorge King around 15 years ago and has 0 issues until just lately. Maybe 500 miles sense the build. I'm running straight 40W oil. It doesn't get cold enough in Florida to justify anything lighter or at least where I would be driving it. First I noticed a lot of oil around the sparkplugs so I tightened them up the best I could. They are now seeping some but not that bad. (Aluminum High comp head). I don't see any major leaks. It will go through over quart of oil in just a 20 mile trip. I cant tell if its smoking while driving but I can only assume that it has to be going out the exhaust. It doesn't smoke when the car is started cold first start or a hot start. I wonder maybe because the car was laid up for so long during my recovery maybe I have a stuck ring. I'm planning on a show this weekend that will put around 80 miles round trip. I will stop every ten miles or so and check the oil but I'm hoping that if it is a stuck ring this trip will fix it. What do you guys think?

[Moxie26]

Change to 10W30 high mileage Mobil 1 oil, and use the standard Ford hot air intake before the carburetor.

[Norman Kling]

I suspect the heavy weight oil is the cause. It might be too late now and you might need to at least pull the head off and see what the cylinder walls look like. Are they scored? are they out of round? etc. The problem is that the Model T has gravity flow and splash oil system. Therefore, especially when the engine is first started, the heavy oil does not flow. and so parts wear. Later as the oil begins to get to the rings it goes right through and into the cylinders. The oil which goes through the spark plug threads should not get that far and would normally burn off and go out the exhaust. I suspect you need an engine overhaul. Hopefully the crankshaft bearings are not also damaged.
Norm

[Craig Leach]

Hi Will,
Oil around the plugs could indicate a ring issues what do the plugs look like? A quart in twenty miles is a lot! I would think a leak that bad will
be noticeable. If the rings are sticky one would think 80 miles is enough to free them up. I would be sure to take lots of oil & plugs. You might
want to change the oil first. I have found that Valvoline has a unique smell when it's hot that will let you know when it escapes the engine.
Hope things work out for you.
Craig.

[John Codman]

If the engine were using that amount of oil you would be travelling ahead of a blue cloud. BTW - you can purchase a borescope that will fit through a spark plug hole for less then $100. No need to remove the head to check the cylinder bores.

[Norman Kling]

I'm thinking of something else which could be causing the problem. If the car was stored for a long time with water in the radiator and block, you might have had some seepage through the head gasket or a possible crack which would allow water into the cylinders. Then the water would get into the rings. Especially is you have cast iron pistons the rings could have rusted to the piston heads. causing them to stick. Or even with aluminum pistons the rings could still rust. Have you taken a compression test? It would be interesting to see if one or more cylinders has low compression.
Norm

[speedytinc]

Oily plug pockets are not unusual for a motor that is not excessively using oil.
The question is where is the oil going & why. lighter oils will bypass more oil than thicker oils.
Have someone follow you as you drive. Is there a constant blue cloud? is there a big cloud after idling, driving away from a light?
The later is from loose valve guides.
That much oil consumption, past the rings, would create a huge blue cloud that you would have seen thru the rear view mirrors.
High oil levels will pass & leak more oil. Ford instruction manual says to maintain the oil level between the 2 petcocks.
Also a hi volume oil system will over fill the front of the crankcase.
Is the oil leaking out? Park it on a clean spot after a drive.
I bought a 27 T with an early 2 valve door engine, but had a 1 piece valve door. The motor would loose/leak a lot of oil between the 2 valve door casting when running @ speed. @ idle & when parked the issue was not noticeable.
Is the oil collecting & over filling into the rear end?

Diagnostics are in order to pin point the issue(s).

[Russ T Fender]

Could that oil be running down the torque tube and into the rear end? If it ain't smoking and it ain't leaking out on the floor it has to be going somewhere and you can store a lot of oil there. Just a thought!

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I would guess that over a quart in 20 miles is too much oil to even burn. Park it somewhere, let it run at a high idle for a while, and look for puddles of oil to form on the ground... and of course, blue smoke. I'm thinking a loose bendix cover, or cracked engine pan, or leaking felt seal between the hogshead & block, or ???

FWIW, I have a 1924, 6 cylinder Buick that will burn a quart every 50-75 miles if I use 10W-30. I KNOW it's burning oil at that rate due to rolling clouds of blue smoke behind me. (Using 20W-50 gets me 150 miles per quart)

[Moxie26]

Using the 10W30 synthetic detergent motor oil will help to flush out deposits from the 40 straight . , especially on the piston rings preventing wear expansion. Check for compression numbers in all four cylinders..... Don't overfill with oil, refill with 3 and 1/2 quarts. Then check upper oil level petcock for true engine oil level.

[TXGOAT2]

Do you have an auxiliary oiler? In some cases, they can over-oil an engine, causing oil to flood the combustion chamber.
40W oil is no good for Model Ts, especially non-detergent 40W. Ford recommended what today is called 20W oil with a low cold test.
A good 10W30 would be a good choice in Florida and most anywhere else. It will do a better job than the best oil available in the 1920s.
Your engine may have stuck or gummed rings.
I'd start it and run it for 10 minutes, then drain the oil into a clean pan. Remove the spark plugs and put a couple of tablespoons of Marvel Mystery oil in each cylinder, then crank the engine with the hand crank and the plugs out. Let it sit overnight, then do it again two or three more times. Allowing to soak overnight several times is beneficial.
Clean and gap the plugs, and put 3 quarts of a good 10W30 oil in the crankcase, plus 1 pint of Marvel Mystery Oil. Then fire it up and let it run a few minutes. Check for leaks, and if everything is OK , take a drive at low to medium speeds for 10 miles or so. At that point, I'd stop and check the oil and look everything over, then repeat the 10 mile drive procedure for two or three days, keeping a close watch on oil and water. If a plug fouls, clean it and keep driving. If your rings are stuck, this may allow them to loosen up. Your engine will start more easily and run much better with an appropriate oil in the engine. ** When you first remove the spark plus, look for any evidence of rust. When you drain the old, thick oil, drain it into a clean pan and look for any indication of water or anti-freeze in it.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Do some of you guys truly believe that changing to 10W-30 oil will cure oil consumption of 1 quart/20 miles?

[speedytinc]

Do some of you guys truly believe that changing to 10W-30 oil will cure oil consumption of 1 quart/20 miles?

NO.
Thinner oil will be worse for burning & leaking. 40wt chicken fat would actually minimize the usage.

There has to be hole somewhere that's pumping oil out as he runs. One lost bendix cover screw could do it.
Reconsidering the amount of loss, the plugs would have fouled before the end of that 20 miles if it was all/most entering the combustion chamber.

I wonder if some project was left undone or unfinished & forgotten years back before the T was put back into recent service.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Do some of you guys truly believe that changing to 10W-30 oil will cure oil consumption of 1 quart/20 miles?

NO.
Thinner oil will be worse for burning & leaking. 40wt chicken fat would actually minimize the usage.

There has to be hole somewhere that's pumping oil out as he runs. One lost bendix cover screw could do it.
Reconsidering the amount of loss, the plugs would have fouled before the end of that 20 miles if it was all/most entering the combustion chamber.

I wonder if some project was left undone or unfinished & forgotten years back before the T was put back into recent service.

Thank you!

[Will]

I agree, That's to much oil to be just goi8ng out the tail pipe. I spent yesterday cleaning the engine with brake clean top to bottom. I replaced the valve cover gaskets and will replace the hogs head band adjustment gasket today. Someone mentioned the starter cup so I will replace that gasket also. I'm going to have my wife follow me for a few miles so she can tell me if its smoking or not. That should far enough to produce any leaks. I did pull the sparkplugs and they look good. I know the rope seal in the front has been seeping but now I wonder if it needs replacing. As someone mentioned I checked the rear end and the oil is right where it should be. I will let everyone know how it goes,

[TXGOAT2]

Stuck rings can often be un-stuck as discussed above. Clogged/stuck rings will allow a lot of oil to pass. In some cases, rings can "skate" on thick oil.
If your plugs are not oily and heavily fouled, the oil is probably going somewhere else. Get the grease out of your crankcase and put a suitable oil in, then drive the car for 10 miles or more several times. You may find that your problems are solved. If you do have significant leaks, they will show up when you take the car out on the road. Some leakage at the crankshaft seals and elsewhere is normal, but the car should run several hundred miles before needing oil added, and it should not leak pools of oil when parked. I have had good results using Marvel Mystery Oil, and similar products, such as Schaler Rislone, in old engines that are sludgy and gummy, or that have sat for many years. Adding some MMO to both the crankcase and the gasoline can be helpful.

[John Codman]

Do some of you guys truly believe that changing to 10W-30 oil will cure oil consumption of 1 quart/20 miles?

No.

[TXGOAT2]

........"First a little back info, 2022 I had hernia surgery and then in 2023 I had shoulder surgery so my 1919 Touring car has not seen a lot of use. The engine had a complete rebuild from George King around 15 years ago and has 0 issues until just lately. Maybe 500 miles sense the build. I'm running straight 40W oil......."


Try cleaning out the engine and using a suitable oil. You may be surprised.

This engine is probably NOT worn out. It probably does have dry seals and stuck rings, or it may have rings that have not had a chance to seat.

If it has an auxiliary oiler installed, it may be over-oiling and have stuck rings, or rings that have not seated. I'd try a clean up procedure and put some open road miles on it before tearing into it.

I've had worn out engines that burned A LOT of oil and still ran well. With "re-run" oil at 16 to 19 cents a quart, I didn't care how much oil they burned. I've had several old engines that smoked and burned oil that limbered up and brought oil consumption way down after some road miles with clean oil.

[Russ T Fender]

My '14 touring smokes but hardly uses any oil and runs just fine. It doesn't take much oil for you to leave a blue trail. Mostly my car smokes when you take off from a traffic light and then it clears up a bit. I am assuming the source is valve guides as a result of my car not having a return drain hole in the valve galley, at least I could never find it. I was told to drill a return hole but would rather burn a little oil than drill a hole and run the risk of metal shavings getting into the crankcase. Is it possible that the oil return hole here is blocked?

[Norman Kling]

Here is something I haven't seen in previous posts. You might have too high oil level in the crankcase. If you are using a dipstick the marks might not indicate the proper oil level. If you use a sight gauge, it might be plugged and you not see the level. If you still use the two petcocks, the upper one might be clogged. Open the top petcock. If oil runs out, it is too full. You might need to run a wire in the petcock when it is open to be sure the oil is flowing. Fill only till the oil starts to run out and stop filling. The correct oil level is above the bottom petcock and the top petcock. So if it flows out the top it is too full.
Norm

[Oldav8tor]

All good suggestions. If your plugs aren't sealing well, I wonder what brand plugs you use? I found that Champions sealed better in my aluminum head than some other brands.

Have you pulled the plug on the differential? If oil runs out that may be part of your problem. Do you have oil leaking around your rear hubs?

[Will]

Found it. It’s the pan gasket right next to the starter. Dripping like crazy. I guess this summer I’m going to be pulling the engine and replacing the pan gasket. I tried to add a video but it’s doesn’t seem to want to load up.

[got10carz]

Will, right next to the area you described is the spot where sometimes the bottom bolts that mount the mag ring are open to the inside. If you don't have a field coil that maybe your problem. Permanent fix is pull the motor and install a bolt. Quick fix is clean the hole from the outside and fill with silicon.

[got10carz]

Pictures of 2 different blocks with the hole I'm referring to.

[speedytinc]

Will, right next to the area you described is the spot where sometimes the bottom bolts that mount the mag ring are open to the inside. If you don't have a field coil that maybe your problem. Permanent fix is pull the motor and install a bolt. Quick fix is clean the hole from the outside and fill with silicon.

This could be your problem.
You need to clean & dry up the area to determine the EXACT point(s) of leakage.
The spot where the top back of the motor mates with the hogs head is a typical leak spot especially in the corners due to the "felt" or whatever seal slips out of place during the HH install.
A good, permanent fix is to use a shop vac to suck into the void some ultra black silicone.

Procedure as follows. If your motor has a single valve door, seal around the throttle rod @ both sides of the block with rags.
Place the shop vac hose in the oil fill. While running the vac, spray some brake clean in the suspected area, The brake clean will suck thru the void & clean it. Apply some ultra black onto the spot. Allow some to be sucked in. Stop the vac. Let the silicone set over night. Run the motor the next day.
If there is still some leakage, repeat the process.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Found it. It’s the pan gasket right next to the starter. Dripping like crazy. I guess this summer I’m going to be pulling the engine and replacing the pan gasket. I tried to add a video but it’s doesn’t seem to want to load up.

That's great news, (sort of)! Thanks for the update!

[Moxie26]

Will ... Changing to 10W30 oil would contribute to a better running engine..... even in Florida.

[Norman Kling]

In a case like the one in Steve's picture, it looks like you could make a plug by cutting a bolt of the proper thread and cutting a screwdriver slot in it and putting some sealer around the threads and screw it in far enough to clear the nut for the crankcase bolt. That would make a permanent seal without having to pull the engine.
Norm

[Adam]

Make sure that it’s not ACTUALLY dripping from the drain hole on the bottom of the starter housing by the flange. This is very common area for oil loss. When the rear facing starter shaft bushing becomes quite worn it can drip that much, but only when running. The fix is easy. Remove the starter and send it out for rebuilding OR replace the bushing and add a modern seal.

[Susanne]

I always had awful luck with synthetic oils in T's Maybe because it was a while ago... but if it wasn't spewing non-dino oil everywhere, well.... nadd to that slippery clutch plates and bands, and yeah, I was one of them old conservatives who went for Dino oil 100%

Then I ran sone 15W40 Blended synthetic, more of a matter of necessity... it was (in the past 15 years) recent, and it seemed fine. I may have had to mash pedals a BIT harder, but even so, the car worked JUST fine.

I still wouldn't put Mobil 1 or Napa Full Syn in a T, but I was maybe sorta coming around???

[Will]

I think I got it fixed. I used the vacuum idea that John mentioned and it seems to be working just fine. Thank you john for the idea. The only difference is instead of silicone I used a sealer that is used for aviation purposes. I have found it works much better that silicone's on just about everything. Of course it costs more. If anyone is interested its made by Permatex and called Permatex Aviation. I use it a lot for marine applications. Its a bit of a sticky mess to use and is non hardening so it stays a sticky mess but you only use a little on joining metals. Thank you everyone for your help.

[speedytinc]

I think I got it fixed. I used the vacuum idea that John mentioned and it seems to be working just fine. Thank you john for the idea. The only difference is instead of silicone I used a sealer that is used for aviation purposes. I have found it works much better that silicone's on just about everything. Of course it costs more. If anyone is interested its made by Permatex and called Permatex Aviation. I use it a lot for marine applications. Its a bit of a sticky mess to use and is non hardening so it stays a sticky mess but you only use a little on joining metals. Thank you everyone for your help.

I have/use aviation permatex for other applications, like fuel line fittings.
I dont think it is as well suited as a void filler.

Glad you have your leak under control.

[Will]

John, Any other day I would be in 100% agreement with you. Giving the Model T engine is a non pressurized system I think it should work out. I drove the T ten miles yesterday with not so much as a drip. When I go the the show Saturday I will stop every few miles and check. I will still bring a gallon of oil with me just in case. It will be around 120 miles round trip. This would be the furthest away show the I've ever attended. I would not be going to this show if they hadn't come to my door and personally requested my car. Plus it supports a cause that my wife and I support. I will let everyone know how it works out. Again, Thanks for the idea.

[DHort]

Have fun Will. Enjoy your drive and come home safe.