Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
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Topic author - Posts: 579
- Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:18 pm
- First Name: Steve
- Last Name: California
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1911 Touring, 1926 Pick Up
- Location: West Coast
Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
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Here is a touchy topic for discussion;
Since finishing restoration and then taking my new "pride and joy" out on tours, it, and I, have been ridiculed by some in our local Clubs for bring a "piece of $#!%" or a "Faux Eleven", or a "Hodgepodge" or a "Disneyland car" to the event. The kicker was when a long time and respected Model T-er said that my "T" is "bad for the Club".
I have to admit that, after putting so much effort into it, I didn't expect this type scrutiny. So, I thought that a discussion here about "what makes a Model T worthy" might help me answer these attacks and maybe help guide others who have experienced similar criticism.
I will start by explaining that in my case, this "1911 Ford Touring Car", as I refer to it, was originally assembled from parts in the mid 1990s by an elderly gentleman in the Long Beach Model T Club and then, upon his demise soon after, just left to sit. For the next 25 years it remained abandoned, uncovered, half in the California sun and full of cats until his widow finally let it go to me. The project was definitely a "rescue" by that point.
On the positive side, this castaway has always been registered here in California as a 1911. And, best those around here can determine, it has a Ford made 1911 frame, front axle, wheels (although natural), windshield frame, steering column, top bows, and body brackets.
However, it has a 26-27 engine modified w/ 1911 peddles, a 1915 rear end w/ Ruckstell, Temecula Rocky Mountain Breaks, a 1911 Ray Wells Body, Rootlieb fenders - splash guards - running boards - and aluminum hood ...all correct matches for 1911, a 1911 correct Brass Works radiator, 1913 coil box and ignition switch, a properly stained and varnished cherrywood reproduction firewall, and of course an electric starter.
In an attempt to respect originality, the car now has beautiful 1911 Ford Midnight Blue Centari single stage paint with correct Ford French Gray pin striping, high quality diamond tuff leather upholstery (although matte finish) with 190+ correct buttons, new correct colonial texture vinyl top with Russ's 1911 reproduction straps and roll-up rear flap. An original 1911 Stewart Speedometer setup and a period correct brass clock installed on the firewall along with an original 1911 California registration medallion. A sea grass floor mat was custom cut to fit over the rear floor boards and a reproduction 1911 leather license plate has been ordered.
A huge amount of time, skill (mine and others), and approximately $20k (incl. car) were dedicated to this project. And throughout this "so called" restoration I learned a great deal about the 1911 Ford Touring, the art of disassembly and re-assembly, automotive painting, wood finishing, and Model T part sourcing. This particular level and scope fit my modest budget and the 18 month endeavor brought me closer to many who share this wonderful hobby, especially those owning 1911 Tourings.
Still, with all this said, the delicate but very real question remains; ... Is a car put together like this in the Model T Ford Club of America welcome at our events and/or is it even "worthy of being called a 1911 Model T Ford?"
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Here is a touchy topic for discussion;
Since finishing restoration and then taking my new "pride and joy" out on tours, it, and I, have been ridiculed by some in our local Clubs for bring a "piece of $#!%" or a "Faux Eleven", or a "Hodgepodge" or a "Disneyland car" to the event. The kicker was when a long time and respected Model T-er said that my "T" is "bad for the Club".
I have to admit that, after putting so much effort into it, I didn't expect this type scrutiny. So, I thought that a discussion here about "what makes a Model T worthy" might help me answer these attacks and maybe help guide others who have experienced similar criticism.
I will start by explaining that in my case, this "1911 Ford Touring Car", as I refer to it, was originally assembled from parts in the mid 1990s by an elderly gentleman in the Long Beach Model T Club and then, upon his demise soon after, just left to sit. For the next 25 years it remained abandoned, uncovered, half in the California sun and full of cats until his widow finally let it go to me. The project was definitely a "rescue" by that point.
On the positive side, this castaway has always been registered here in California as a 1911. And, best those around here can determine, it has a Ford made 1911 frame, front axle, wheels (although natural), windshield frame, steering column, top bows, and body brackets.
However, it has a 26-27 engine modified w/ 1911 peddles, a 1915 rear end w/ Ruckstell, Temecula Rocky Mountain Breaks, a 1911 Ray Wells Body, Rootlieb fenders - splash guards - running boards - and aluminum hood ...all correct matches for 1911, a 1911 correct Brass Works radiator, 1913 coil box and ignition switch, a properly stained and varnished cherrywood reproduction firewall, and of course an electric starter.
In an attempt to respect originality, the car now has beautiful 1911 Ford Midnight Blue Centari single stage paint with correct Ford French Gray pin striping, high quality diamond tuff leather upholstery (although matte finish) with 190+ correct buttons, new correct colonial texture vinyl top with Russ's 1911 reproduction straps and roll-up rear flap. An original 1911 Stewart Speedometer setup and a period correct brass clock installed on the firewall along with an original 1911 California registration medallion. A sea grass floor mat was custom cut to fit over the rear floor boards and a reproduction 1911 leather license plate has been ordered.
A huge amount of time, skill (mine and others), and approximately $20k (incl. car) were dedicated to this project. And throughout this "so called" restoration I learned a great deal about the 1911 Ford Touring, the art of disassembly and re-assembly, automotive painting, wood finishing, and Model T part sourcing. This particular level and scope fit my modest budget and the 18 month endeavor brought me closer to many who share this wonderful hobby, especially those owning 1911 Tourings.
Still, with all this said, the delicate but very real question remains; ... Is a car put together like this in the Model T Ford Club of America welcome at our events and/or is it even "worthy of being called a 1911 Model T Ford?"
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Last edited by NorthSouth on Sat Mar 16, 2024 9:39 am, edited 5 times in total.
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
Here's my nickel's worth: I think it is a darn good looking car that I for one would be proud to own. While it may not have all the 1911 hardware like the engine, rear axle, etc. it sure looks like an early brass car. A lot of brass cars out there have later engines and other parts as the owner may want a starter or choose not to run the original engine lest something disastrous happens to it. As long as you are not trying to pass it off as a fully authentic 1911, who the heck cares what others say? And, you get extra points from me for not painting it red!
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- First Name: Susanne
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
Wow. Just.... Wow.Since finishing restoration and then taking my new "pride and joy" out on tours, it, and I, have been ridiculed by some in our Club for bring a "piece of $#!%" or a "Pho-11", or a "Hodgepodge" or a "Disneyland car" to the event. The kicker was when a long time and respected Model T-er said that my "T" is "bad for the Club".
I have to admit that, after putting so much effort into it, I didn't expect this type scrutiny. So, I thought that a discussion here about "what makes a Model T worthy" might help me answer these attacks and maybe help others who have experienced similar criticism.
If valid, that "club" sounds less like a club and more like a rather snobbish mutual admiration society, you put a lot of work making your car as good as you did, and to have someone tell you you're not welcome, or call it a "disneyland car"? I'm curious to know which club...
It's a T. It would be welcome at any T tour or event I know of. It would also probably get by undisparaged at most HCCA events. (I remember one "T" on a tour that sounded smooth and quiet, and the owner lifted the hood to show off his pinto engine... on an HCCA tour... Hmmm...)
Like any T, you do what you can to get the car on the road first, and as time (and money) permit, you upgrade them.
"Bad for the club"?? Those, um, "Horse=deposited road apples" is what's not good for the hobby.
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
That is a beautiful car you know there's a lot of snobby people in the model T Ford club of America I have known a lot of people that have dropped out of it because of stuff like this you know there's a Lotta old guys that can't crank A T Anymore but still want to drive and have a later engine put in it and nothing is said . think I give them a piece of my mind. Do you know Henry Ford wanted people to update their model T In fact, every few years he would update Edison's car or replace it Drive it with pride
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- First Name: Norman
- Last Name: Kling
- Location: Alpine California
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
That's a beautiful car and We would welcome one like that in the San Diego club. If it runs well we would like to invite you to our June National tour in San Diego County. All but one of the daily tours are on back roads. The one day we will be going to Padre Dam and historic Lakeside. That will be on non busy surface streets.
Most of us use our cars for tours and parades.
If you plan to have a "show car" which is entered in judging contests, then I would say no it is not original enough for that. If you enter in car shows which don't judge the cars, most viewers will not know the difference
We have many speedsters in the club which are not original. Only requirement for a speedster is a Model T block.
Only a few barn finds are completely original, and the rot and termite and rust are not original either.
Have fun with your car. Even if you plan to sell it, you can very likely recover your investment.
Norm
Most of us use our cars for tours and parades.
If you plan to have a "show car" which is entered in judging contests, then I would say no it is not original enough for that. If you enter in car shows which don't judge the cars, most viewers will not know the difference
We have many speedsters in the club which are not original. Only requirement for a speedster is a Model T block.
Only a few barn finds are completely original, and the rot and termite and rust are not original either.
Have fun with your car. Even if you plan to sell it, you can very likely recover your investment.
Norm
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
Wouldn't be the first nor the last car with "mismatched" pieces parts. Overall from its looks in the pic, it looks like a "normal '11" and looks great. Like one poster said, at least you didn't paint it RED!!
Ray Wells body? I'd like a census made as to how many out there ALSO are a Well's body! There's one for sale right now from a very respected vendor with a Ray Wells body. Should he be drug through the mud and under the bus for that? NO. If it weren't for guys like Ray and Tom Rootlieb better than half these cars either wouldn't be on the road or would be running around without fenders!! Enjoy the car, and BTW, find yourself a new club! Yours sucks.

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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
Just about every car on the forum has mismatched parts of some sort. Hey It's a T and a good looking on at that. Welcome!!! Love it.
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
When was the last time you saw a correct 9-10-11 on a national road run? I have seen a few on display, but not on the road for 5 days of touring.
I know you drive the crap out of your T. High props! Stop listening to that guy.
How does one justify brass speedsters with not one original part.
Your 11 looks great. A visual benefit to any tour. Its more 11 than many. I agree with the above views.
When you get fed up with the nonsense judgments of your T, Ill make room for it in my garage. You have seen my garage. I could not make a more complementary comment.
Confidentially, I am more put off with demount-able wheels on a brass T.
I know you drive the crap out of your T. High props! Stop listening to that guy.
How does one justify brass speedsters with not one original part.
Your 11 looks great. A visual benefit to any tour. Its more 11 than many. I agree with the above views.
When you get fed up with the nonsense judgments of your T, Ill make room for it in my garage. You have seen my garage. I could not make a more complementary comment.
Confidentially, I am more put off with demount-able wheels on a brass T.
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
Nice car! Who cares what other people think!
Sure you weren't at the Porsche club meeting?
Sure you weren't at the Porsche club meeting?

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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
Someone once said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
Keeping the hobby alive is totally dependent on the number of cars resurrected & getting on the road. Put, puttering, T's & TT's that are driven in parades, ice cream runs etc are the attention getters and generate interest. Stationary "Trailer Queens" only seen at car shows & then hibernate until the next one get less attention- if a mix of car makes & models are at a show they will get less attention then muscle cars of the 60's. No matter what is claimed none of them are truely "original" as they came off the factory line. They usually over the top restorations, modern paint, powder coated parts and bright white tires (original were off-white)
Your car is a perfect pick-it-apart Model T for those trying to justify their own pride-n-joy & spend. They should thank you for something to occupy their time.
By the way this is what the hobby is really about:
"And throughout this restoration I learned a great deal about the 1911 Ford Touring, the art of disassembly and re-assembly, automotive painting, wood finishing, and Model T part sourcing. This particular level and scope fit my modest budget and the 18 month endeavor brought me closer to many who share this wonderful hobby, especially those owning 1911 Tourings"
Keeping the hobby alive is totally dependent on the number of cars resurrected & getting on the road. Put, puttering, T's & TT's that are driven in parades, ice cream runs etc are the attention getters and generate interest. Stationary "Trailer Queens" only seen at car shows & then hibernate until the next one get less attention- if a mix of car makes & models are at a show they will get less attention then muscle cars of the 60's. No matter what is claimed none of them are truely "original" as they came off the factory line. They usually over the top restorations, modern paint, powder coated parts and bright white tires (original were off-white)
Your car is a perfect pick-it-apart Model T for those trying to justify their own pride-n-joy & spend. They should thank you for something to occupy their time.
By the way this is what the hobby is really about:
"And throughout this restoration I learned a great deal about the 1911 Ford Touring, the art of disassembly and re-assembly, automotive painting, wood finishing, and Model T part sourcing. This particular level and scope fit my modest budget and the 18 month endeavor brought me closer to many who share this wonderful hobby, especially those owning 1911 Tourings"
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
That looks like a beautiful car that definitely belongs in this club. I don't hear you pretending that it is something completely original but rather as a stunning and drivable restoration in the spirit of a 1911 T. Most of us would be proud to own such a car. Some prefer authentic patina, good for them. Some prefer to be as authentic as possible with their cars, that's great. Some like a bitsa that they can simply drive and enjoy. Some like to be a PITA and pick apart the efforts of others. I know which groups of people I prefer. What should not be welcome, it is the feedback you got from those who don't appreciate your efforts.
BTW, do any completely original 1911 touring cars still exist?
BTW, do any completely original 1911 touring cars still exist?
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
It's completely welcome! The majority of T's today are "put togther" cars. Don't let a bunch of snobs ruin your fun. I can't believe some peopleIs a car put together like this in the Model T Ford Club of America welcome at our events and/or is it even "worthy of being called a 1911 Model T Ford?"

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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
Hard to believe really though I’m not surprised at all at some peoples reaction to something like this. It’s a gorgeous car and one thing I’m sure about from what I’ve read here is there’s some really big mouthed scum in that club. You need to sever from them for your own piece of mind. Stick to shows and driving this gem.
Forget everything you thought you knew.
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
I don't know what kind of people belong to your club but you'd be very welcome in ours....Beautiful car!
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
As Joe E. Brown observed in the last line of Some Like It Hot, "Nobody's perfect."
Even the most fastidious of Model T owners, well known for promoting original parts, necessarily make some concession to the passage of time. See that shiny 1912 over there? It's gorgeous. Did the owner use Henry Ford's paint formula? Nope. How about the touring that looks so fresh you think it's fit for a 1915 show room? None of the tires made for it today are "correct". How about a 1914 that uses battery current to get started if the magneto is on the fritz? Does its battery power come from four 1.5 volt dry cell telephone batteries? (You can still get those, but the prices aren't original.) How many Model T folks blow their clincher tires up to 65 or 70 psi with a T era hand pump? I've heard one well-known originalist mention in passing that he was using a New Day timer.
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of Ford.
Even the most fastidious of Model T owners, well known for promoting original parts, necessarily make some concession to the passage of time. See that shiny 1912 over there? It's gorgeous. Did the owner use Henry Ford's paint formula? Nope. How about the touring that looks so fresh you think it's fit for a 1915 show room? None of the tires made for it today are "correct". How about a 1914 that uses battery current to get started if the magneto is on the fritz? Does its battery power come from four 1.5 volt dry cell telephone batteries? (You can still get those, but the prices aren't original.) How many Model T folks blow their clincher tires up to 65 or 70 psi with a T era hand pump? I've heard one well-known originalist mention in passing that he was using a New Day timer.
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of Ford.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
Steve, Every Model T has a story to tell, I for one love the early cars. I love even more early cars with their original early parts. I bought a 1912 commercial roadster once upon a time which had a lot of parts that were not correct for 1912. My fault, I should have done my research and known better. Since that time I look at all early cars and what I see is that most of them are made up of a lot of later parts. As I said in the beginning every Model T, early or late, has a story to tell. Over the years things change. Mostly by necessity of the owner. Every part adds to its story. Every story needs to be told. The stories are what saves the cars. I would say you don't need a new car. You need some new friends.
Richard Williams, Humboldt, TN
President, Tennessee T's inc.
President, Tennessee T's inc.
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
Where to start?!
Speedytinc indicates he knows you. While I do not personally know John K myself, I have known him and his reputation through this forum for many years. What he says means something!
Your 1911 is as authentic as half the brass era model Ts on the road! While the 1926ish engine "technically" makes it not qualify for the HCCA, as Susanne said, even on most HCCA Regional Group tours, your car would be considered acceptable and even welcomed. The Regional Group I have belonged to for thirty years is more strict than most (and I do like them for that), and even they would allow that car on their local tours (I have seen worse welcomed on their tours over the years)
Some people think I am a purist, but I really am not, although I do lean that way somewhat. (I like antique automobiles in what I call "looking era correct"! ) I am too much a realist and know that purism, like perfection, is an unattainable goal. When cars are offered for sale with grandiose claims of absolute correctness? I can pick them apart with the worst/best of them. When people are enjoying their cars on tours or other club activities, or on the road on their own? I welcome them and enjoy seeing them. Anything that looks as good as your 1911? I would be thrilled to follow all day long on a major tour!
In this, and other collector type passions, there are always "purists" and "holier than thou"s. Usually the loudest ones have nothing so great themselves.
So, let the rest of us know more closely where you are, and find a better local club that will welcome you as they should so you can enjoy that beautiful 1911 !
Speedytinc indicates he knows you. While I do not personally know John K myself, I have known him and his reputation through this forum for many years. What he says means something!
Your 1911 is as authentic as half the brass era model Ts on the road! While the 1926ish engine "technically" makes it not qualify for the HCCA, as Susanne said, even on most HCCA Regional Group tours, your car would be considered acceptable and even welcomed. The Regional Group I have belonged to for thirty years is more strict than most (and I do like them for that), and even they would allow that car on their local tours (I have seen worse welcomed on their tours over the years)
Some people think I am a purist, but I really am not, although I do lean that way somewhat. (I like antique automobiles in what I call "looking era correct"! ) I am too much a realist and know that purism, like perfection, is an unattainable goal. When cars are offered for sale with grandiose claims of absolute correctness? I can pick them apart with the worst/best of them. When people are enjoying their cars on tours or other club activities, or on the road on their own? I welcome them and enjoy seeing them. Anything that looks as good as your 1911? I would be thrilled to follow all day long on a major tour!
In this, and other collector type passions, there are always "purists" and "holier than thou"s. Usually the loudest ones have nothing so great themselves.
So, let the rest of us know more closely where you are, and find a better local club that will welcome you as they should so you can enjoy that beautiful 1911 !
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
Your car is beautiful. It is perfect for touring. If I had an original 11 with the original drive train. I would replace the drive train with that from a black car. Then tour it. lWhy risk an 11 engine etc.
I hope your club is not affiliated with the MTFCA or with the MTFCI.
Art Mirtes
I hope your club is not affiliated with the MTFCA or with the MTFCI.
Art Mirtes
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
The absolute best and most period correct model T is the one on the road, oil drippin, thirsting for more road!
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
HI STEVE.
THIS IS EXACTLY THE REASON THAT MYSELF AND MORE THAN A FEW OTHERS DONT GO TO OLD CAR SHOWS FOR ANTIQUE CARS AND MODEL TS.
THERE IS ALWAYS THE PURISTS WHO WILL GO CAREFULLY OVER A MODEL T THATS A RECENT RESTORATION AND RUN IT DOWN BEHIND YOUR BACK AND ROLL THEIR EYES TO COMPLAIN BECAUSE ITS NOT 100% PERFECT IN EVERY WAY.
THESE ARE THE SO CALLED ORIGINALISTS, PERFECTIONISTS , WHO PROUDLY WEAR THEIR CLUB COLORS OR WHATEVER AND USUALLY THE WORST. THEY ARE THE SELF APPOINTED EXPERTS AND ENGINEERS IN EVERYTHING THEY DO AND USE THEIR CARS AS THE STANDARD.
AT FIRST THEY SEEM LIKE THEY ARE “GOOD FOLKS”. BUT AFTER A FEW TIMES LOOKING AT YOUR CAR THEY SPREAD THE WORD TO LOOK AT THE CLOWN CAR THAT SHOWED UP.
THESE FOLKS ARE LEGENDS IN THEIR OWN MINDS.
KEEP GOING TO CAR SHOWS AND YOU CAN SPOT THESE FOLKS PRETTY QUICK. THEY ARE ALWAYS THERE. THEY USE TERMS SUCH AS JOHNNY CASH CAR, A FARM FIX, AND OTHER TERMS TO RUN DOWN YOUR WORK. YOU ARENT THE FIRST BY ANY MEANS THAT THIS HAS HAPPENED TO. UNFORTUNATELY THERE ARE CLUBS THAT ARE CLIQUES THAT HARBOUR THESE TYPE OF FOLKS AND NEED TO BE CALLED OUT. EVENTUALLY THEY WILL BE FOUND OUT. ITS A REAL SHAME THAT PEOPLE WOULD DO SUCH THINGS BUT THEY DO AND HOPEFULLY ITS NOT MANy FOLKS THIS WAY AND FOR THE SAKE OF A HOBBY THAT SHOULD BE OPEN TO EVERYONE.
STEVE YOU ARE TO BE CONGRATULATED FOR A NICE JOB ON YOUR T. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!
THIS IS EXACTLY THE REASON THAT MYSELF AND MORE THAN A FEW OTHERS DONT GO TO OLD CAR SHOWS FOR ANTIQUE CARS AND MODEL TS.
THERE IS ALWAYS THE PURISTS WHO WILL GO CAREFULLY OVER A MODEL T THATS A RECENT RESTORATION AND RUN IT DOWN BEHIND YOUR BACK AND ROLL THEIR EYES TO COMPLAIN BECAUSE ITS NOT 100% PERFECT IN EVERY WAY.
THESE ARE THE SO CALLED ORIGINALISTS, PERFECTIONISTS , WHO PROUDLY WEAR THEIR CLUB COLORS OR WHATEVER AND USUALLY THE WORST. THEY ARE THE SELF APPOINTED EXPERTS AND ENGINEERS IN EVERYTHING THEY DO AND USE THEIR CARS AS THE STANDARD.
AT FIRST THEY SEEM LIKE THEY ARE “GOOD FOLKS”. BUT AFTER A FEW TIMES LOOKING AT YOUR CAR THEY SPREAD THE WORD TO LOOK AT THE CLOWN CAR THAT SHOWED UP.
THESE FOLKS ARE LEGENDS IN THEIR OWN MINDS.
KEEP GOING TO CAR SHOWS AND YOU CAN SPOT THESE FOLKS PRETTY QUICK. THEY ARE ALWAYS THERE. THEY USE TERMS SUCH AS JOHNNY CASH CAR, A FARM FIX, AND OTHER TERMS TO RUN DOWN YOUR WORK. YOU ARENT THE FIRST BY ANY MEANS THAT THIS HAS HAPPENED TO. UNFORTUNATELY THERE ARE CLUBS THAT ARE CLIQUES THAT HARBOUR THESE TYPE OF FOLKS AND NEED TO BE CALLED OUT. EVENTUALLY THEY WILL BE FOUND OUT. ITS A REAL SHAME THAT PEOPLE WOULD DO SUCH THINGS BUT THEY DO AND HOPEFULLY ITS NOT MANy FOLKS THIS WAY AND FOR THE SAKE OF A HOBBY THAT SHOULD BE OPEN TO EVERYONE.
STEVE YOU ARE TO BE CONGRATULATED FOR A NICE JOB ON YOUR T. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!
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- First Name: James
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- Location: Bartow, FL
- Board Member Since: 2001
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
If it looks like a T, sounds like a T, smells like a T, drives like a T and makes people smile when it passes, like a T, then it is a T. Don’t be discouraged by the jealous jerk that trash talked your T. He has no idea what he is talking about and should be drummed out of the brotherhood of T lovers, if he is going around criticizing other members Model T’s. You have done a beautiful job and deserve to be praised, not criticized for your fantastic work of preserving another Model T for future generations. Be proud of your accomplishment and let no one make you feel any less. Jim Patrick
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
NorthSouth, Steve,
As I mentioned not personally knowing John Karvaly, but knowing him through years on the forum, I have also enjoyed reading many of your postings and feel I know you somewhat. I truly hope to get to meet you at some tour or swap meet and be able to shake your hand! Hopefully, I get to see your car also.
I hope you continue to associate with us riffraff on this forum, and hopefully in some local clubs that deserve your comradery. And hopefully, you can post many photos on this forum of you and your cars on tours and meets enjoying the company of the good people of the hobby.
Avoid the snobs and elitists.
As I mentioned not personally knowing John Karvaly, but knowing him through years on the forum, I have also enjoyed reading many of your postings and feel I know you somewhat. I truly hope to get to meet you at some tour or swap meet and be able to shake your hand! Hopefully, I get to see your car also.
I hope you continue to associate with us riffraff on this forum, and hopefully in some local clubs that deserve your comradery. And hopefully, you can post many photos on this forum of you and your cars on tours and meets enjoying the company of the good people of the hobby.
Avoid the snobs and elitists.
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
I'm pretty sure that about 999 out of every 1,000 new Ts delivered to a retail customer were blemished in some way before they ever reached that customer's home. (Especially the very early models) Within a very few miles in service, if not sooner, these cars accumulated scrapes, nicks, dings, "normal wear of appearance items", and had non-original consumables, such as tires, oil and lubricants, tires, tubes, and so forth were installed. Some Ford parts were obsoleted and not available for service. Even cars that were somehow spared hard use on poor or non-existent roads and neglect and abuse by unskilled drivers and service people were likely left out in the weather or parked in barns shared with livestock and vermin, like mice and dirt daubers. Besides all that, it's evident that Ford did not build cars to any rigidly strict specification during the Model T era, and outside suppliers did not provide perfectly uniform parts and assemblies, either. Running changes are many, and many service parts were phased out and replaced by revised items.
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
In the Model Railroad trade we call those people rivet counters. Complain because an HO model has 14 rivets, but a real engine had 15. Like anyone else can see.
The car looks beautiful. Can I have a ride?
The car looks beautiful. Can I have a ride?
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
It’s a fact what the above posts has brought out that needs to realized by Model T enthusiasts and especially our newcomers.
As much as we want them to be and myself included is we really do spend more time rebuilding, restoring and using much BETTER paint on Model T’s than Henry Ford ever did.
The 3 T’s that I have are not perfect restorations but are 95% correct in my estimation and look good from 10 feet away using correct parts as I could afford and find.
T’s were built to the standards at the time which today would be good enough to run and look pretty good. If they were built like a Rolls Royce and the other top end makes Ford wouldn’t have built as many simply because the regular everyday people couldn’t afford to buy them. This should be remembered as what Model T’s really were. It’s a real wonder that Fords every man’s car lasted as long as they did and he built so many. Now that shows Henry Fords genius in a real way.
As much as we want them to be and myself included is we really do spend more time rebuilding, restoring and using much BETTER paint on Model T’s than Henry Ford ever did.
The 3 T’s that I have are not perfect restorations but are 95% correct in my estimation and look good from 10 feet away using correct parts as I could afford and find.
T’s were built to the standards at the time which today would be good enough to run and look pretty good. If they were built like a Rolls Royce and the other top end makes Ford wouldn’t have built as many simply because the regular everyday people couldn’t afford to buy them. This should be remembered as what Model T’s really were. It’s a real wonder that Fords every man’s car lasted as long as they did and he built so many. Now that shows Henry Fords genius in a real way.
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
A perfect restoration has imperfections
How perfect can a 1914 Model T be when it only took 93 minutes to assemble it.

How perfect can a 1914 Model T be when it only took 93 minutes to assemble it.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
We Had the privilege of having Steve and other California T enthusiasts attend our 2022 Laughlin Nevada Reliability Tour. If I remember correctly
this was one of the first tours for this latest restoration on this fine looking T. It preformed exceptionally well. I fear we loose track of what this
hobby really is. And fear that the down fall of our hobby that is attracted by many as a environmentally destructive practice will come from
within because we seem to enjoy fighting amongst ourselves more than promoting the hobby.
Craig.
this was one of the first tours for this latest restoration on this fine looking T. It preformed exceptionally well. I fear we loose track of what this
hobby really is. And fear that the down fall of our hobby that is attracted by many as a environmentally destructive practice will come from
within because we seem to enjoy fighting amongst ourselves more than promoting the hobby.
Craig.
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
Even Ford made changes during the model year. I wonder how many 13's still have the original body where the back seat falls off? Ford reinforced that part during the year and many, perhaps were repaired by dealers with braces. I wonder how many early T's still have a standard grind crankshaft of the same year? You see many cars have aftermarket parts inside the engine which cannot be seen from the outside. How many have aluminum pistons and cylinders which have been bored out or sleeved? How many have the original gears and drums in the transmission and the original cotton bands. How many have the original clutch disks and springs? What about the original cotter pins? I suspect all or nearly all have been replaced. And how many still have the original oil in the crankcase and original water in the radiator? How about safety glass windshield? Many serious cuts were caused by the original glass which shattered into very sharp pieces. Or how many still have the original spokes in the wood wheels? I could go on and on. I would suspect that not very many cars have all the original internal parts. How about fan blades? How many have broken off and gone through the radiator or hood? In California only certain types of paint are allowed. One would need to take the car to another state or maybe another country to find the original type paint.
Steve, I think it is someone who doesn't like you that is criticising your car. I wonder how original their car really is?
Norm
Steve, I think it is someone who doesn't like you that is criticising your car. I wonder how original their car really is?
Norm
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
What a beautiful car!
Dave H beat me to "The car looks beautiful. Can I have a ride?"
I wanna see that starter-equipped engine with '11 pedals! Neatly thought out!
Such a neat thread comes from a couple (I'm pushing up under my nose with my thumb) fellas that are too cool for school.
Bless them for what they are. The rest of us can actually enjoy our old model T's the way we do.
Dave H beat me to "The car looks beautiful. Can I have a ride?"

I wanna see that starter-equipped engine with '11 pedals! Neatly thought out!
Such a neat thread comes from a couple (I'm pushing up under my nose with my thumb) fellas that are too cool for school.
Bless them for what they are. The rest of us can actually enjoy our old model T's the way we do.
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
I have owned a 1968 Mustang convertible for 40 years that I am extremely proud of. When i first got the car it was rusted in two. After rebuilding it I showed it at several local shows. It is not painted an original color and I changed the interior to black. I too, got tired of the snide remarks from others about the originality of it. I finally started asking “ where is your car?” I have done everything on the car except for the machining of the block, from the structural rust repair, painting , and interior. It shuts them up pretty quickly when I ask them about their car, or lack there of one. The snarky side of me simply tells them it isn’t for sale, so why do they care what it is, or isn’t.
My Model T is titled as a 1922, has a 1923-25 body, with a ‘26-‘27 engine with a September of 1921 engine number. All I know is that I enjoy it, people wave, smile and video it as we go by.
If I was told I wasn’t welcomed at an event because of the lack of “originality” of my car, I think I would agree with them because I wouldn’t want to be around snobs like them.
Enjoy the fruits of your labors and smile as you drive past them
Scott
My Model T is titled as a 1922, has a 1923-25 body, with a ‘26-‘27 engine with a September of 1921 engine number. All I know is that I enjoy it, people wave, smile and video it as we go by.
If I was told I wasn’t welcomed at an event because of the lack of “originality” of my car, I think I would agree with them because I wouldn’t want to be around snobs like them.
Enjoy the fruits of your labors and smile as you drive past them
Scott
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
It is your car do as you wish and as many others have pointed out not one car out there is absolutely correct as it was built unless it is an unrestored original I call guys like that clipboard clowns and could care less what they think but they think it makes them important.
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
To directly answer your question: "is it even "worthy of being called a 1911 Model T Ford?"
I would describe it as a 1911 Model T Ford and, if necessary (such as if selling or God forbid a snob show), add caveats such as later engine, etc. But I would call it an 11 Model T. It sure looks like one.
I would describe it as a 1911 Model T Ford and, if necessary (such as if selling or God forbid a snob show), add caveats such as later engine, etc. But I would call it an 11 Model T. It sure looks like one.
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
I am normally not a mean person but had someone came up to me after all my years of hard work and made comments like that about my T to my face, they would probably find themselves decked and on the ground.
IF that attitude were common amongst members of MTFCA, I would say send me back my money.
IF that attitude were common amongst members of MTFCA, I would say send me back my money.
If you can't help em, don't hinder em'
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Topic author - Posts: 579
- Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:18 pm
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of being Here?
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This post was relocated to the end of this thread.
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This post was relocated to the end of this thread.
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Last edited by NorthSouth on Sun Mar 17, 2024 7:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Steven, that is one extremely beautiful car. My 12 has a Ray Wells body but everything else is original, just like yours, but, it has a starter, Rocky Mountain brakes and a ruckstell axle so I can get up my 35 degree driveway since I live in the mountains.
The first time my club members saw my 15 touring, they said, here comes Frank with the Johnny Cash special. All of our cars are special, they are 100 years plus old with many users and abusers taking care of these toys of ours before us. My 73 year old raggedy body isn’t the way it is when I was in my prime and if it wasn’t for the handful of pills every day and many operations over the years, I would be on the other side of the grass by now. The same goes for the beautiful little cars we treasure so dearly and drive with pride. As Mr. Original Smith once commented, your car is no longer factory correct if you have a flat tire and put in new air into the tire.
Not everyone is willing to put in the time, money and effort to beautify our cars and it seems to be easier to try and bring down your efforts to their level of ———-. Sorry but it makes me angry to know that some people would rather demolish you than join in celebrating the hobby on whatever level you are content to be part of it.
The first time my club members saw my 15 touring, they said, here comes Frank with the Johnny Cash special. All of our cars are special, they are 100 years plus old with many users and abusers taking care of these toys of ours before us. My 73 year old raggedy body isn’t the way it is when I was in my prime and if it wasn’t for the handful of pills every day and many operations over the years, I would be on the other side of the grass by now. The same goes for the beautiful little cars we treasure so dearly and drive with pride. As Mr. Original Smith once commented, your car is no longer factory correct if you have a flat tire and put in new air into the tire.
Not everyone is willing to put in the time, money and effort to beautify our cars and it seems to be easier to try and bring down your efforts to their level of ———-. Sorry but it makes me angry to know that some people would rather demolish you than join in celebrating the hobby on whatever level you are content to be part of it.
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- First Name: John
- Last Name: Codman
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
First, I would like to associate myself with Susanne's comment. Second, If owning that "hodgepodge" is bothering you, feel free to drop it off at my house. My recommendation would be to keep that beautiful T, and find some new friends.
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Are "branch-built" Model Ts, of any era, "original"? If a Ford dealer received a new car with shipping damage and elected to replace a fender, is that car "original"? If a dealer installed Ford accessories on a new car prior to sale, is that car's originality destroyed?
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- First Name: Robert
- Last Name: Brough
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- Location: Winston, GA
- Board Member Since: 2015
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Find another club. You are tellng the Ford Model T story, not the Henry Ford Museum story. Our military vehicle hobby has factory class restorations and motor pool class restorations. Two different levels of interest and each member can bite off what he can chew. No one class is superior to the other, both are equally important in telling the Model T sotry.
Are speedsters, Doodlebugs, T buckets, etc all "banned" or shunned by your club?
Find another group to hang around with.. Don't let other's opinions ruin your experience.
In my mind, I have a created a third class of restoration, it's called the IMFJ class. It's My Frickin Jeep.
Are speedsters, Doodlebugs, T buckets, etc all "banned" or shunned by your club?
Find another group to hang around with.. Don't let other's opinions ruin your experience.
In my mind, I have a created a third class of restoration, it's called the IMFJ class. It's My Frickin Jeep.
Why do we drive on parkways and park on driveways?
A bunch of old cars
Sometimes they run.
Sometimes, they don't.
A bunch of old cars
Sometimes they run.
Sometimes, they don't.
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- Location: Honolulu HI
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
I would bet that the ones complaining about your excellent restoration pay people to do every inch of "perfect" work on their cars!
Steve
Steve
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- First Name: Richard
- Last Name: Eagle
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 TR 1914 TR 1915 Rd 1920 Spdstr 1922 Coupe 1925 Tudor
- Location: Idaho Falls, ID
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
As a guy who built a 1909 with a '20 engine and '13-'14 chassis, I can sympathize with you. I had no expectations of it being accepted by those who knew the difference and was pleasantly surprised by the lack of criticism. I have never claimed it to be authentic, but it allows me to enjoy an early car and share it with hundreds of folks who will never see a closer '09. I have toured with some real '09s and was not only welcomed, but they told of the things on theirs that were off. We have driven it several thousand miles. Many of them with cars from 1909 into the 60s and 70s. Folks are happy to have a model T of any kind on those tours, even if we can't keep up. Every car is a trade-off, and I have traded authentic for being able to drive a car that won't devalue if something brakes of gets ruined. All that being said, I'm happy to have it since it pleases me and those around me, that is good enough.
I am glad it looks so much like a 1909 and hope anyone taking those liberties tries to make it look as authentic as they can.
Rich Do what pleases you. You are paying for it.
I am glad it looks so much like a 1909 and hope anyone taking those liberties tries to make it look as authentic as they can.
Rich Do what pleases you. You are paying for it.
When did I do that?
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- First Name: Terry
- Last Name: Woods
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1927 Model T coupe, 1926 4 door sedan
- Location: Cibolo (San Antonio), TX
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
You have a beautiful car that I can only imagine that you have much money and time invested in. The important thing to tell "purists" is that your car in not presented as a correctly restored museum piece, but rather is more akin to being a 'clone'. I'd be willing to bet that there are more T's left in the world that have at least one none "original to the car" part on them, than there are 100% original cars with no parts from other T's used in their restoration. From what you say, the club you refer to is made up of "stuck up" purists who believe a T isn't a T unless it is completely original. At least you don't have a Chevy engine in it.
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- Contact:
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Steve,NorthSouth wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:36 pm
Still, with all this said, the delicate but very real question remains; ... Is a car put together like this in the Model T Ford Club of America welcome at our events and/or is it even "worthy of being called a 1911 Model T Ford?"
You have done a beautiful job on this car. Only those who have done what you have really know how much work it is to fully restore or rebuilt a car from the frame up. You have been up front about the car's history; what is from 1911 and what is not. If someone doesn't like you calling it a 1911, then that is their problem.
If in the future your family needs to sell it to the next caretaker, then certainly the cars history would be important information for them to communicate to potential buyers, as it would likely affect the value of the car.
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- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Canadian 1912 Ford Model T Touring
- Location: Canaduh
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
You really have a beautiful looking 1911 T. I have a 1912 T, shamefully painted red (apparently) with brass step plates, added 'Ford' script on the radiator, fake dust covers for rubber stemmed inner tubes, outside oil line kit, new day timer, and an oil sight gauge. I'm starting to feel bad about my car now.
I’m reading a book about anti-gravity. I just can’t put it down. 

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- Board Member Since: 2022
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
If you really want to wade into the “is it original” fray, read up on railway preservation. There are some who would rather let a piece return to the earth than repair it. It destroys the “historic fabric”. Most, not all, mind you, DO NOT CARE. I truly do understand that it isn’t what the factory built. These are machines that degrade with use. If they are not maintained, what do you have? They were new once and sold to a public that used them as intended. They survived due to the sheer number built, but I would bet that in the depths of the Great Depression, one would do what ever it would take to keep the families transportation viable.
My dear friend, Sam Atkinson, says to me “ there have been 25 owners of this car and 23 of them were butchers”. It is our passion that keeps them on the road. How many of us here have removed a nail instead of a cotter pin? Found a shim forced in somewhere to take up excessive clearance? The list is as long as there are parts on the car
99% of the people enjoy the process 99.9% of the general public enjoy the cars. The rest enjoy trying to make others feel bad about themselves.
As i said earlier, I have no time for them, I’m too busy having fun
Scott,
Proud owner of a pile of parts that Ford never assembled, but I sure do enjoy
My dear friend, Sam Atkinson, says to me “ there have been 25 owners of this car and 23 of them were butchers”. It is our passion that keeps them on the road. How many of us here have removed a nail instead of a cotter pin? Found a shim forced in somewhere to take up excessive clearance? The list is as long as there are parts on the car
99% of the people enjoy the process 99.9% of the general public enjoy the cars. The rest enjoy trying to make others feel bad about themselves.
As i said earlier, I have no time for them, I’m too busy having fun
Scott,
Proud owner of a pile of parts that Ford never assembled, but I sure do enjoy
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Nicely put Scott!!
I’m reading a book about anti-gravity. I just can’t put it down. 

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- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: too many. '14 touring, 2 depot hacks, 2 speedsters
- Location: ALAMEDA,CA,USA
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
The Wiki version of "hobby" in part:
A hobby is considered to be a regular activity that is done for enjoyment, typically during one's leisure time. Hobbies include collecting themed items and objects, engaging in creative and artistic pursuits, playing sports, or pursuing other amusements. Participation in hobbies encourages acquiring substantial skills and knowledge in that area. A list of hobbies changes with renewed interests and developing fashions, making it diverse and lengthy.
Key word here is ENJOYMENT.
Drive that car Steve!!
Dan
A hobby is considered to be a regular activity that is done for enjoyment, typically during one's leisure time. Hobbies include collecting themed items and objects, engaging in creative and artistic pursuits, playing sports, or pursuing other amusements. Participation in hobbies encourages acquiring substantial skills and knowledge in that area. A list of hobbies changes with renewed interests and developing fashions, making it diverse and lengthy.
Key word here is ENJOYMENT.
Drive that car Steve!!
Dan
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- Board Member Since: 2010
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Wow! This one hit the nail.
"It's bad for the model T hobby"
As long as someone is not misrepresenting what they have, we should all refrain from unsolicited comments.
What DOES hurt the hobby, is some newby at an event, (or anyone for that matter) being told what a piece of crap their car is!
"It's bad for the model T hobby"
As long as someone is not misrepresenting what they have, we should all refrain from unsolicited comments.
What DOES hurt the hobby, is some newby at an event, (or anyone for that matter) being told what a piece of crap their car is!
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
The snide remarks made to me back in the early 90's when i was working to get my amateur radio license is the very reason i said to heck with this and stopped pursuing it all together.JohnM wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 6:47 pmWow! This one hit the nail.
"It's bad for the model T hobby"
As long as someone is not misrepresenting what they have, we should all refrain from unsolicited comments.
What DOES hurt the hobby, is some newby at an event, (or anyone for that matter) being told what a piece of crap their car is!
I reckon some of the oldsters thought they were really doing something when they criticized me for wanting to use tube type equipment instead the new fangled 2 meter stuff that was the current rage.
I met some resistance when I started in the T hobby . Most older folks thought I was just building a hot rod. Until I drove my TT past them at Denton Farm park in 2005, i got a better reaction from them!.
But so far, other than the state calling my T pickup a specially constructed replica on the title, no one has criticized it.
If you can't help em, don't hinder em'
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- First Name: Norman
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
I have posted this before, but some might not have seen it. This is my car before and after restoration. I doubt it has an "original" part on it, but has almost all "original" parts from ] Model T's. I do have Ruckstell rear axle and Temecula Rocky Mountains and Brass Works radiator. I also have an Anderson Timer, but still have magneto and coils and the engine has been sleeved to standard but does have aluminum pistons and a SCAT balanced crankshaft. The crank is standard stroke. I do have dippers on the rod bearings and a magneto oil line. A few parts might be from different years, but the all fit together and runs very well.
Norm
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Norman, that car was one step away from the smelter. I would not be critical if you had turned it into a hotrod, better that than gone. But, I'm glad you didn't.
Then again, it's your car, you didn't build it to make anyone else happy.

Then again, it's your car, you didn't build it to make anyone else happy.

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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
At the next meet… show up in a speedster!
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Topic author - Posts: 579
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
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This post was relocated to the end of this thread.
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This post was relocated to the end of this thread.
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Last edited by NorthSouth on Sun Mar 17, 2024 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
John in Canaduh.
If you do not want your 12 anymore, please send me your address. I will come and get it out of your garage and you can buy a Porsche.

If you do not want your 12 anymore, please send me your address. I will come and get it out of your garage and you can buy a Porsche.



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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Amen to that. NO fenders,
If you can't help em, don't hinder em'
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
And as many Phillips screws showing as possible!
Everything works in theory.
Reality is how you determine if something works or not.
Reality is how you determine if something works or not.
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Ha ha...thanks for the offer Dave but it sounds like the Porsche crowd are equally ignorant to people's feelings!
I would post a picture of my car but 'red' offends! I knew at the time I should have had it painted to please the elite.
My plan for the car is to donate it to a museum since Canadian built '12's c/w their fore-doors are rare. I may rethink that now as it's not representative of a 'factory correct' T.
I’m reading a book about anti-gravity. I just can’t put it down. 

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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
By 1914, at the latest, I'd bet there were no original 1911 Model Ts left on Earth... unless one or more of them were at the bottom of a deep lake due to some shipping mishap. Since Ford made running changes of one kind or another daily, if not oftener, in order to keep production moving and growing, it seems likely that there may never have been any perfectly "original" 1911 cars. Did Ford ever designate a specific segment of T production to be "1911" ? If I did own a highly original, near 0 miles early car, I couldn't drive and enjoy it, since to do so would spoil its originality very quickly. Beyond all that, keeping a Model T as an untouchable museum piece or trailering it to one antiseptic static display or another goes against the entire original Model T philosophy.
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
What is more disagreeable:
Constructing a replica from period parts, or restoring an original car because you didn't like to original colour?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bugatti/commen ... _actually/
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/classi ... st-replica
https://exclusivecarregistry.com/detail ... e-57/31795
http://www.bugattibuilder.com/articles/ ... o_EXK6.htm
Constructing a replica from period parts, or restoring an original car because you didn't like to original colour?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bugatti/commen ... _actually/
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/classi ... st-replica
https://exclusivecarregistry.com/detail ... e-57/31795
http://www.bugattibuilder.com/articles/ ... o_EXK6.htm
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
"Y'know, your tires really ought to be white."
A car-show attendee had just caught me off guard while I was unloading a beach chair from the back seat of my '15 Model T Ford. But hey, I'm sharp, so it didn't take me more than a split second to respond, "Huh?"
"Your tires. They should be white, not black. They didn't have black tires back in 1915."
"Oh, okay. If you say so."
"So what are you gonna do about it?"
.
Hubboy. For some reason, I seem to attract this type—the same type who will take it upon himself to walk up to and address a group of innocent, unsuspecting spectators in front of my car and proclaim stuff like, "Henry Ford invented the automobile this was the very first one;" and, "The Ford factory had the first assembly line and the Model T was the first ever mass-produced car;" and, "The Model T Ford only came in black;" and other such myths. We all know the type.
.
My antagonist repeated, "So what are you going to do about the tires?"
Now, I don't figure it's my place to contradict a guy in front of his friends and family (which is why there are lots of bite marks on my tongue), so instead of telling him that white tires cost more than twice as much as black tires and last only half as long, I just gave him a noncommittal shrug—and then smiled real friendly-like and asked, "Did you bring an antique car to the show today?"
"Uh, no."
"Do you own an antique car?"
"No." Yeah, well, I already knew that.
.
I think there's a natural consumer's tendency to feel that the person paying the freight has the right to call the shots. This, then, usually causes the item of purchase to conform to the needs and tastes of the purchaser. Normally, that's how we order our food, clothes, furniture, computers, etc. It would be very unusual for the purchaser to feel a personal need—or a moral obligation—to conform to the needs of the commodity being purchased. So the large-ticket purchase price of something the size of an automobile just isn't conducive to an attitude of selfless altruism.
.
I felt the same way when I bought my Model T Ford, and before the car first entered my garage, I had made a number of major modifications. These included switching out the original, overhand-type front wishbone for the later (and safer) underhand type; adding an electric self-starter, which necessitated switching out the original transmission for a later-vintage model; electrifying the cowl lamps to convert them into turn-signals; adding a complete 12-volt electrical system and rewiring the headlights so they'd run off the battery/alternator rather than the magneto; etc., etc.
.
Okay, so why'd I do all that? Well, one excuse behind which I tend to hide is that of safety. Most of the above could be considered safety-equipment and while it all sounds very conscientious, none of that stuff did anything good for the historicity of the artifact. Rather, it made the car conform to the traffic needs of my own neighborhood—in other words, my needs. Maybe the right thing to do would have been to admit that my heavily-trafficked neighborhood wasn't right for the operation of a Brass-Era automobile and until such time as I moved to a more bucolic locale with lightly-traveled country back-roads, maybe I shouldn't own a horseless carriage.
.
Well, that kind of thinking might be good for an individual antique car, but it's not good for the antique car hobby—and the hobby is a largest part of what drives the survival of these wonderful old machines. In any case, the situation is naturally self-regulating: The least expensive cars—in other words, cars like my Tin Lizzie—exist in large enough numbers that there will always be plenty of intact, historical examples that conform to high standards of authenticity (and organizations like the AACA do have strict rules about what those standards should be). On the other hand, numerically rare, opulent, high-end automobiles like brass Pierce-Arrows, Packards, Locomobiles and the like are far less likely to fall into the unwashed hands of a working-class guy like myself, but will instead become the pampered pets of those with the afluence to not only purchase and have such automobiles restored by five-star restoration facilities to original mint condition, but also to operate them in an environment more in keeping with the proper care and feeding of an irreplaceable million-dollar historical treasure.
.
But for the great majority of car-guys, it becomes a matter of, "Hey, I bought and paid for this car with my own hard-earned money, so I'll be the one who decides what to do with it." And if some know-it-all car show lurker doesn't like that idea—and there's no shortage of those who are vociferous about sharing such points of view in spite of not owning an antique car themselves—then such an individual can put his money where his big mouth is, make a similar investment and preserve his car according to his own, much higher standards.
A car-show attendee had just caught me off guard while I was unloading a beach chair from the back seat of my '15 Model T Ford. But hey, I'm sharp, so it didn't take me more than a split second to respond, "Huh?"
"Your tires. They should be white, not black. They didn't have black tires back in 1915."
"Oh, okay. If you say so."
"So what are you gonna do about it?"
.
Hubboy. For some reason, I seem to attract this type—the same type who will take it upon himself to walk up to and address a group of innocent, unsuspecting spectators in front of my car and proclaim stuff like, "Henry Ford invented the automobile this was the very first one;" and, "The Ford factory had the first assembly line and the Model T was the first ever mass-produced car;" and, "The Model T Ford only came in black;" and other such myths. We all know the type.
.
My antagonist repeated, "So what are you going to do about the tires?"
Now, I don't figure it's my place to contradict a guy in front of his friends and family (which is why there are lots of bite marks on my tongue), so instead of telling him that white tires cost more than twice as much as black tires and last only half as long, I just gave him a noncommittal shrug—and then smiled real friendly-like and asked, "Did you bring an antique car to the show today?"
"Uh, no."
"Do you own an antique car?"
"No." Yeah, well, I already knew that.
.
I think there's a natural consumer's tendency to feel that the person paying the freight has the right to call the shots. This, then, usually causes the item of purchase to conform to the needs and tastes of the purchaser. Normally, that's how we order our food, clothes, furniture, computers, etc. It would be very unusual for the purchaser to feel a personal need—or a moral obligation—to conform to the needs of the commodity being purchased. So the large-ticket purchase price of something the size of an automobile just isn't conducive to an attitude of selfless altruism.
.
I felt the same way when I bought my Model T Ford, and before the car first entered my garage, I had made a number of major modifications. These included switching out the original, overhand-type front wishbone for the later (and safer) underhand type; adding an electric self-starter, which necessitated switching out the original transmission for a later-vintage model; electrifying the cowl lamps to convert them into turn-signals; adding a complete 12-volt electrical system and rewiring the headlights so they'd run off the battery/alternator rather than the magneto; etc., etc.
.
Okay, so why'd I do all that? Well, one excuse behind which I tend to hide is that of safety. Most of the above could be considered safety-equipment and while it all sounds very conscientious, none of that stuff did anything good for the historicity of the artifact. Rather, it made the car conform to the traffic needs of my own neighborhood—in other words, my needs. Maybe the right thing to do would have been to admit that my heavily-trafficked neighborhood wasn't right for the operation of a Brass-Era automobile and until such time as I moved to a more bucolic locale with lightly-traveled country back-roads, maybe I shouldn't own a horseless carriage.
.
Well, that kind of thinking might be good for an individual antique car, but it's not good for the antique car hobby—and the hobby is a largest part of what drives the survival of these wonderful old machines. In any case, the situation is naturally self-regulating: The least expensive cars—in other words, cars like my Tin Lizzie—exist in large enough numbers that there will always be plenty of intact, historical examples that conform to high standards of authenticity (and organizations like the AACA do have strict rules about what those standards should be). On the other hand, numerically rare, opulent, high-end automobiles like brass Pierce-Arrows, Packards, Locomobiles and the like are far less likely to fall into the unwashed hands of a working-class guy like myself, but will instead become the pampered pets of those with the afluence to not only purchase and have such automobiles restored by five-star restoration facilities to original mint condition, but also to operate them in an environment more in keeping with the proper care and feeding of an irreplaceable million-dollar historical treasure.
.
But for the great majority of car-guys, it becomes a matter of, "Hey, I bought and paid for this car with my own hard-earned money, so I'll be the one who decides what to do with it." And if some know-it-all car show lurker doesn't like that idea—and there's no shortage of those who are vociferous about sharing such points of view in spite of not owning an antique car themselves—then such an individual can put his money where his big mouth is, make a similar investment and preserve his car according to his own, much higher standards.
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
John Heaman, I apologize for MY comment that perhaps came across as snarky. I commented that the OP got extra points from me for not painting his car red. To explain, I had been looking at various pictures of Model T's and there was a picture of a black era Model T painted a pinkish-red color. Kind of pepto bismal color. Everything, even the engine. So I was thinking of that picture when I made my comment. And, now that I think more about it, it isn't up to me what color he paints his car. Just because I don't care for it doesn't mean he isn't thrilled with it. So sorry if I offended and shouldn't have put that comment in my post.
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Although I have a 1919 touring that has a sky blue over black fenders splash aprons and running boards, I also have a 1911 touring that is midnight blue, and I have done as authentic of a restoration as possible. I appreciate the fact that Steven really did his homework and nailed it with not only a very accurate body color, but he also did his homework on the pinstriping. I am also glad he did not paint the body red!
I have seen the car in person and he did a remarkable job.
If it were not for people like Lee Chamberlain, Tom Rootlieb, and Raymond Wells, there would be hundreds and hundreds of cars not on the road, or on the road and looking like junk!
I don't think Steven had ever claimed his car to be an authentic 1911 Model T.
Friends encourage each other. "Friends" who have nothing good to say are not friends.
: ^ )
I have seen the car in person and he did a remarkable job.
If it were not for people like Lee Chamberlain, Tom Rootlieb, and Raymond Wells, there would be hundreds and hundreds of cars not on the road, or on the road and looking like junk!
I don't think Steven had ever claimed his car to be an authentic 1911 Model T.
Friends encourage each other. "Friends" who have nothing good to say are not friends.
: ^ )
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Topic author - Posts: 579
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- First Name: Steve
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
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This post was moved down from its place 17 posts above.
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Dear all of you,
I have read your comments and want to thank you for your kind words. Please know
that the overwhelming majority of our local club members in California are kind, welcoming, generous, and a pleasure to be around. But, this
curmudgeon problem is real and is a timely discussion for our hobby because for our chapters to survive into the future, we need to encourage and embrace new membership.
Personally, I love the Brass Era Model T hobby for three reasons.
One; the
love of these cars and keeping them on the road.
Two; the social
camaraderie we share together out on tour and now here in this Forum.
And, Three and no less
important; the positive interaction we and these cars enjoy with the public at large.
I also, to a lesser degree, appreciate refining knowledge of exactly how a 1911 Ford, and others, came out of the factory, but, I despise bullies showing off their expertise by dressing down my T and me. This type behavior, not all that rare, turns me away.
But, the overwhelming fact remains, you guys and your passion for your cars are the reason this hobby is so attractive and I appreciate everything that membership in the Model T Ford Club of America brings.
Thank you again for your kind words of support and for all that you are doing to keep these
wonderful cars alive and going.
Cheers,
Steven ...one of the 99%
This post was moved down from its place 17 posts above.
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Dear all of you,
I have read your comments and want to thank you for your kind words. Please know
that the overwhelming majority of our local club members in California are kind, welcoming, generous, and a pleasure to be around. But, this
curmudgeon problem is real and is a timely discussion for our hobby because for our chapters to survive into the future, we need to encourage and embrace new membership.
Personally, I love the Brass Era Model T hobby for three reasons.
One; the
love of these cars and keeping them on the road.
Two; the social
camaraderie we share together out on tour and now here in this Forum.
And, Three and no less
important; the positive interaction we and these cars enjoy with the public at large.
I also, to a lesser degree, appreciate refining knowledge of exactly how a 1911 Ford, and others, came out of the factory, but, I despise bullies showing off their expertise by dressing down my T and me. This type behavior, not all that rare, turns me away.
But, the overwhelming fact remains, you guys and your passion for your cars are the reason this hobby is so attractive and I appreciate everything that membership in the Model T Ford Club of America brings.
Thank you again for your kind words of support and for all that you are doing to keep these
wonderful cars alive and going.
Cheers,
Steven ...one of the 99%
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Steven;
You have a beautiful car.
My '11 has a '17 or '18 engine, the wheels don't have the correct felloes, and I'm thinking of pulling the engine and installing a starter.
I have a '12 Farm Roadster in progress, with a red body...I anticipate getting all kinds of kickback on that.
Again, you have a beautiful car; enjoy it with those close to you.
Bill Everett
You have a beautiful car.
My '11 has a '17 or '18 engine, the wheels don't have the correct felloes, and I'm thinking of pulling the engine and installing a starter.
I have a '12 Farm Roadster in progress, with a red body...I anticipate getting all kinds of kickback on that.
Again, you have a beautiful car; enjoy it with those close to you.
Bill Everett
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
At one time I was crtical of Model Ts made up on later and replica parts, but now realize to keep the club goinig is okay to have replica brass Model Ts. To the general public, these Ts are "real" and are enjoyed. Aside comment, most all curved dash Oldsmobiles have replica bodies. The originals tend to fall apart. A friend, years ago, had a 1912 Lozier. He remodied the car as a 1910 Briarcliff Lozier. I assume this car is still out there somewhere and enjoyed.
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- Location: N.W. Illinois
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
if they really want to complain that much about how your car is not original, tell them to go find the original parts that are all nice and restored and ready to go and then have them put them in the car for you!
To the general public who whinks a 1930s pickup is a model t, i dont think anyone besides the people who know Ts are going to be able to tell a difference. Its better than having it scrapped, or turned into a hot rod, or watcbing a youtube video of it being destroyed!
The cars are over 100 years old, stuff isn't going to be the same as the day it left the factory unless you have a bottomless wallet!
The car looks great thw way it is!
To the general public who whinks a 1930s pickup is a model t, i dont think anyone besides the people who know Ts are going to be able to tell a difference. Its better than having it scrapped, or turned into a hot rod, or watcbing a youtube video of it being destroyed!
The cars are over 100 years old, stuff isn't going to be the same as the day it left the factory unless you have a bottomless wallet!
The car looks great thw way it is!
Just a 20 year old who listens to 40 year old music, works on 75 year old airplanes and drives 100 year old cars.
The past is only simple because hindsight is 20/20.
The past is only simple because hindsight is 20/20.
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- First Name: Norman
- Last Name: Kling
- Location: Alpine California
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
It's more important to have fun with your car than to have everything perfect. I personally like touring or going to car shows just so the people can see the old cars. If you want a show car, then keep it perfect. But you better keep out the oil and leave the gas tank empty. Also drain the radiator and take it in to the show in a trailer. Don't let the bead on the tires wear out. Also use original tires! They won't be any good on the road. It is only original once. And even "restoring" the original parts is not original anymore. It is just silly Snooty to insist that everything must be perfect. Let's have fun. I can't imagine driving the car all the way from USA to Cabo San Lucas without putting some wear on the car. Or what about driving across the Lincoln Highway in a T. That would also put wear on it. My grandfather and uncle took a trip from Los Angeles to Plymouth Rock in a T. Along the way, they ran into a ditch and some onlookers helped them lift it back onto the road. Somewhere along the way they broke a crankshaft and were towed into a Ford dealer who fixed it overnight. Most likely replaced the whole engine to be able to do it that fast. And most likely the engine was not even the original year of manufacture. I know thay had a Ruckstell in it because broke that on one occasion. Anyway they used that car for what it was intended to be used for and repaired it with whatever parts were available.
So let's do what we want with our own car and let others do what they want. But not critisize others for their cars.
Norm
So let's do what we want with our own car and let others do what they want. But not critisize others for their cars.
Norm
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- Location: Collierville, TN
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- Board Member Since: 2011
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- First Name: Dennis
- Last Name: Brown
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- Location: Spring Hill Fl
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
It is your car, be proud of it. You put your time, effort and money in it and it is up to you to enjoy it, all original or not. Sounds like you need to ask around some of your not so stuck up T friends and start your own friends and enjoy your T's and leave the trailer queen group to themselves.
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- Location: Idaho Falls, ID
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
It's nice to hear all the supportive remarks. I can't help but think any T is redeems its shortcomings by using it to bring joy to others. 95% or more of the people who see mine don't know or care about anything not correct about it. Just getting to see it or even take a ride in it seems to make them happy. Fortunately, it doesn't get around the experts who might be offended by discrepancies. Being able to use it hopefully will inspire some enthusiasts.
We took these folks to ice cream.When did I do that?
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- Last Name: Clary
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- Location: Usa
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
I’ve been following this with great interest, you see I’m the one who called Steve’s car a fauxleven. Now if you know me you know I always go for the cheap laugh. When Steve first brought his new car by to get running it looked like a reject from a Disney parade. To see the amount of work and the skills he acquired during this restoration is amazing and it is truly a nice car.
But the real difference between this car and most other T’s is that the history is fresh. Any number of our cars may have similar origin stories 40 or 50 years ago and no one is around to tell them or dispute any acquired facts. It is important to note that Steve has never claimed his car to be an original.
On the same lines many of us have admired Original Smith’s 1925 pickup. It is a very correct car that he put a lot of effort to get every right. A recent issue of the Model T Times had the story of Larry’s build. Yes, build. It didn’t exist until Larry made it so. The only difference between Steve and Larry’s cars is the effort to keep the pickup as it would have come from Ford.
Andy
But the real difference between this car and most other T’s is that the history is fresh. Any number of our cars may have similar origin stories 40 or 50 years ago and no one is around to tell them or dispute any acquired facts. It is important to note that Steve has never claimed his car to be an original.
On the same lines many of us have admired Original Smith’s 1925 pickup. It is a very correct car that he put a lot of effort to get every right. A recent issue of the Model T Times had the story of Larry’s build. Yes, build. It didn’t exist until Larry made it so. The only difference between Steve and Larry’s cars is the effort to keep the pickup as it would have come from Ford.
Andy
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- Posts: 370
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:01 am
- First Name: Russ
- Last Name: Furstnow
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1911 Torpedo,1913 Touring, 1914 Runabout, 1915 Coupelet, 1916 Coupelet, 1917 Coupelet
- Location: Flagstaff, AZ
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
I was in contact with Steve when he was restoring his 1911 Touring. He asked me many questions about the color for his car and about some of its features, incluing the "correct" speedometer for the car. I was glad to help, and I think his car came out very well.
Some of the people on the forum may think I'm a bit of a purist since I was the Chief Judge of the MTFCI. While I am a purist, I also love cars that are not original at all. A case in point is my father's 1911 Touring that is totally RED in color because my mother wanted a "red" Model T. To me, this car is beautiful and it runs like a swiss watch, and it has been on the front cover of two "Vintage Ford" magazines. Have I been critized for owning/driving this car...of course I have. I still remember a comment from a MTFCA member stating that my car was not a "real"1911 Ford, and that hurt me, but it did not deter me from having fun with the car. I am fortunate to have two Stynoski cars sitting next to my dad's red 1911 touring, and they all look great together.
I'm glad that Steve restored his car the way he wanted it, and I would be proud to tour with Steve ANYTIME.....but I want to take my red 1911 touring on that tour!!! Russ Furstnow
Some of the people on the forum may think I'm a bit of a purist since I was the Chief Judge of the MTFCI. While I am a purist, I also love cars that are not original at all. A case in point is my father's 1911 Touring that is totally RED in color because my mother wanted a "red" Model T. To me, this car is beautiful and it runs like a swiss watch, and it has been on the front cover of two "Vintage Ford" magazines. Have I been critized for owning/driving this car...of course I have. I still remember a comment from a MTFCA member stating that my car was not a "real"1911 Ford, and that hurt me, but it did not deter me from having fun with the car. I am fortunate to have two Stynoski cars sitting next to my dad's red 1911 touring, and they all look great together.
I'm glad that Steve restored his car the way he wanted it, and I would be proud to tour with Steve ANYTIME.....but I want to take my red 1911 touring on that tour!!! Russ Furstnow
Last edited by Russ_Furstnow on Sat Mar 23, 2024 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- First Name: John
- Last Name: Tannehill
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Steve to answer the question in the header of this thread please allow me to use a local question to answer your question, Does 25 pounds of Martha White self rising flour make a big biscuit?
Russ I understand, I’m with you & Steve on this. Steve the real kicker would be offering it for sale to the critic so they can correct it if it’s that important to them, just joking. My 1911 touring is totally fake. 1 piece spindle(1921), open valve engine (fake, thanks Charlie RIP) 2 piece drive shaft, real, one piece pan, fake thanks Mr Johnson, rectangle cover transmission cover fake thanks Ernie Brown RIP, 6 rivet Clamshell rear axle fake new casting thanks Mr Edwards, body Ray Wells special, fenders & running boards plus hood, thanks Tom.
Windshield thanks Speedway, coil box thanks RV RIP. Seat’s & upholstery thank Ernie R. The list goes on.
IT IS ALSO PAINTED RED, WHY CAUSE THATS THE COLOR BIG MOMMA WANTED!!!!, and I love it. I don’t fear driving it all over the place unlike the 09’s and 12, they are real.
I just happen to like the look & the feel without the worry.
Russ I understand, I’m with you & Steve on this. Steve the real kicker would be offering it for sale to the critic so they can correct it if it’s that important to them, just joking. My 1911 touring is totally fake. 1 piece spindle(1921), open valve engine (fake, thanks Charlie RIP) 2 piece drive shaft, real, one piece pan, fake thanks Mr Johnson, rectangle cover transmission cover fake thanks Ernie Brown RIP, 6 rivet Clamshell rear axle fake new casting thanks Mr Edwards, body Ray Wells special, fenders & running boards plus hood, thanks Tom.
Windshield thanks Speedway, coil box thanks RV RIP. Seat’s & upholstery thank Ernie R. The list goes on.
IT IS ALSO PAINTED RED, WHY CAUSE THATS THE COLOR BIG MOMMA WANTED!!!!, and I love it. I don’t fear driving it all over the place unlike the 09’s and 12, they are real.
I just happen to like the look & the feel without the worry.
Last edited by JTT3 on Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- First Name: Harvey
- Last Name: Bergstrom
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 Touring
- Location: Cayuga ND
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
I’ve been reading the many kind words of many “T” hobbyists as I am one myself, although quite new to the hobby. You have a beautiful car there that anyone would be very pleased to own. You need not be ashamed to take your car to any show anywhere. Do not worry about the purist out there who would not accept your car for what it is. It is your car, your passion, your enjoyment. I was once wondering about my ‘24 Touring, as many things are not original equipment either. People have been overjoyed at seeing my car and elated to be able to just sit in it and have their photo taken, and nearly reduced to tears when I offer rides. There are so many awesome cars people have done and I do appreciate the purists as they have painstakingly restored their cars. The nice thing about MTFCA is that there is a lot of folks just like us that have made their cars to their liking. Enjoy yours!
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- First Name: Larry
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- Location: Lomita, California
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Steve restored this car on my property. He is well aware of what is correct, and what is not. He chose to do it his way. Enough said.
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- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:11 pm
- First Name: Eric
- Last Name: Macleod
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13 Touring, 26 Touring (2006 Stynoski), 27 Fordor, 27 Fordor, '92 Stynoski, 'owner emeritus
- Location: Battle Creek, Michigan
- Board Member Since: 2016
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
I am a purist and make no apologies for that. Saying that I can add that I would be proud to own this car.
1913 Touring
1925 Touring
1926 Touring (2006 Stynoski)
1927 Fordor (2)
1927 Touring
Stynoski 1992, Nash, Franklin, Lincoln, Cadillac and Buick owner emeritus
1925 Touring
1926 Touring (2006 Stynoski)
1927 Fordor (2)
1927 Touring
Stynoski 1992, Nash, Franklin, Lincoln, Cadillac and Buick owner emeritus
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
You had a chance to buy a local known original car since new for a decent price. You decided to pass. Those kind of deals don't appear every day. Have fun with your new toy!
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- First Name: Susanne
- Last Name: Rohner
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- Contact:
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Sorry, Andy, but when someone else feels it's somehow OK to downderess a T owner for whatever reason, when they poured time and money ad love into their baby, and it presents not as a 50's hot rod but a T, you have done nothing but diminsh the hobby. I don't care about Steve's '25 Pickup being nice and original; what you did was really throw a rock through someone's windshield thinking it was "funny". Calling someone's labor of love (and money pit) a "Disneyland Car"? That's a real Mickey Mouse thing, kinda... Goofy thing to tell someone. That's funny. Right?AndyClary wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 3:17 pmI’ve been following this with great interest, you see I’m the one who called Steve’s car a fauxleven. Now if you know me you know I always go for the cheap laugh. When Steve first brought his new car by to get running it looked like a reject from a Disney parade. To see the amount of work and the skills he acquired during this restoration is amazing and it is truly a nice car.
But the real difference between this car and most other T’s is that the history is fresh. Any number of our cars may have similar origin stories 40 or 50 years ago and no one is around to tell them or dispute any acquired facts. It is important to note that Steve has never claimed his car to be an original.
On the same lines many of us have admired Original Smith’s 1925 pickup. It is a very correct car that he put a lot of effort to get every right. A recent issue of the Model T Times had the story of Larry’s build. Yes, build. It didn’t exist until Larry made it so. The only difference between Steve and Larry’s cars is the effort to keep the pickup as it would have come from Ford.
Andy
So I'm looking for the "laugh" at discouraging a fellow member and breaking his spirit... Ya see, my car was built in August 1915, it had a December '15 motor, more accessoried that came well after the car was new, it toured our family all over heck... We had FUN in that car, which brought all of us a lot of smiles. The breakdowns we fixed on the side of the road brought us "laughs" later - we didn't need some member telling us that early 20's Ruckstell or the Pikes Peak brakes or late teens Ford Faithful or double wishbone made our car less than.
Bottom line is, I don't have old cars (or now, motorcycles) so I can be the queen of the hill, collect trophies from Pebble, and show everyone how much better than them that I am, and impress someone. I have them to go out and have fun, love driving or riding them, and collecting smiles. So what if my present Pride and Joy was a wrecked and arc welded back together '21 Harley FD with a totally incorrect lighting set up and missing parts - I love it. OTher people love it. They don't play AACA superjudge and tell me that the spoked are .01" too thick. They realise it's MY baby, and they can either like it or walkaway.
I don't think of it as a way to show others how great I am, that I can compete with a Bill Borba / Bill Harrah restoration (and yes, I knew both Bills when I was way younger, both of whom ENCOURAGED this nut into this insane hobby)... I dont have (never had) the kind of money to throw at something to make it 115% like it rolled off the factory floor. Even if I did - maybe I'm happy with what I have
Because when you use someone elses labor of love to denegrate them, it's cheap, but not funny.
I'm out.
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- First Name: Norman
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
I have seen many T's over the years. Some were no where near "original". Some were. Many of those which were not Original, working and over the years the owner found some original parts, repaired them and installed on his car. so it became more like Henry made it. I personally liked doing as much of the work as I could myself. Driving the cars and taking other people for rides. Many people don't even know what a Model T looks like. I went to a gas station at least once and someone would come up and ask if it was a "46". They didn't even know what the cars from the 1940's looked like! Only when cars enter a show where they are judged for the best and most original is it OK to decide which car is best. And then not make smart alec remarks about someone's car. I know what parts on mine are not original and what are. I also have chrome plating on the shell, bumpers, and headlight rims. Also on the hub caps. I know it is not "correct" but is much easier to clean up and doesn't need polishing. The paint is not the original type nor exact color, but it looks good. The car has been driven on many tours and has not needed a trouble truck. That doesn't mean it won't ever need one, but so far it has not. The point I am trying to make is to be polite to others and encourage them, not to make fun of their car and work to get it looking and running good.
Norm
Norm
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?

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- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
- First Name: Wayne
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- Location: Grass Valley California, USA
- Board Member Since: 2005
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Gracie'sDad wrote: ↑Mon Mar 25, 2024 3:38 pmMy '23 touring has disc brakes and a dip stick. I've never had MTFCA decline my annual dues for non originality.
The only "dipstick" any of my model Ts ever had was the one behind the steering wheel!
Ahoooo-ooogha!
(I'm jokingly putting me down! If I want to put someone down I wanna put ME down!)
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
I wonder whether the person who put down your car has modern capacitors in the coils? Or what about oversize cylinder bores? or bronze thrust washers in the rear axle? What about the air in the tires? Is it original? It's just silly. I would say almost all of the model T's have something that is not original. Could even be wood in the body. If it is still original, most likely has dry rot and or termites in it. I would say, Perhaps, a very few cars were stored in a barn when everything was original and even those could have termites or carpenter ants in the wood.
The cars which were driven, as a Model T, was intended, would break down from time to time and replacement parts would be placed in it. Most likely any part which would fit was used. Some parts, obviously would not fit such as the hogs head inspection plate or the valve compartment cover, unless it was very early with the open valves. What about improvements such as external oil lines, or Rocky Mountain brakes etc? Those parts were made to fit a Model T and helped keep it running longer and more safety, especially in hilly places. What about modifications necessary to fit larger or smaller drivers who could not fit under the steering wheel or reach the pedals?
Most important thing is to look like a Model T, and run like one.
Norm
The cars which were driven, as a Model T, was intended, would break down from time to time and replacement parts would be placed in it. Most likely any part which would fit was used. Some parts, obviously would not fit such as the hogs head inspection plate or the valve compartment cover, unless it was very early with the open valves. What about improvements such as external oil lines, or Rocky Mountain brakes etc? Those parts were made to fit a Model T and helped keep it running longer and more safety, especially in hilly places. What about modifications necessary to fit larger or smaller drivers who could not fit under the steering wheel or reach the pedals?
Most important thing is to look like a Model T, and run like one.
Norm
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- Location: Usa
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Ouch Susanne. Kinda harsh without any context of the relationship between myself and Steve. I guess I didn’t have to make my original post but I thought I was pretty clear about how I liked how Steve’s car turned out.
Andy
Andy
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Topic author - Posts: 579
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- First Name: Steve
- Last Name: California
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1911 Touring, 1926 Pick Up
- Location: West Coast
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
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The 82 comments above show the overwhelming support us guys (and gals) have in this wonderful club. Yes there are some bullies among our ranks but when reading these generous words one can easily see the friendship that our chosen hobby provides. Come to think of it, I might just print out these pages of comments and have them at the ready to simply hand to the next curmudgeon who finds it necessary to insult my T, because you all say it better than I ever could.
Suzanne said it best a few posts above; "Bottom line is, I don't have old cars (or now, motorcycles) so I can be the queen of the hill, collect trophies from Pebble, and show everyone how much better than them that I am, and impress someone. I have them to go out and have fun, love driving or riding them, and collecting smiles." ...This is so true. I couldn't agree with her more.
And, friends that I have made like Andy Clary, a Model T mechanic generous with his time, parts, and knowledge, keep newbies like me going when the times get rough. Although he indeed does call my T a "faux 11" (and I tell him to shut the !&#$ up every time he does), but in his case, he is more making fun of those elitist prima donnas than he is of my car. This makes him OK in my book and one of those who is "good for our hobby".
Hope to see all of you out on the road.
Steven
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Last edited by NorthSouth on Wed Mar 27, 2024 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Adding fuel to the fire...
Provenance - the history of the car, ownership & modifications made - is what validates its correctness & originality. The correct parts per car don't define originality (as made it came off the assembly line) only correctness (as Ford would have built it).
--
Unless one (owner or critic) knows the complete documented history of the car, it is no different than the one parked next to it.
--
The story of this car, as I recall having read it, was that the owner crashed the right front fender into a tree, lost his love of driving and stored it in the barn (see photo), I think it was stated as 1911. The car was retrieved about 2018-19 I think. The car has been restored - new paint, top upholstery, rebuilt mechanical and an original right front fender. Don't have a picture to share now.
--
--
The Barn --
pulled out of the barn --
the dealership where it was purchased and the car in front of it --
In the shop for restore --
Just one of the pictures of getting "restored" --
--
For now its life will be in a museum, another barn for another 100 years. No parades, no shows.
So how does this make you feel?
Provenance - the history of the car, ownership & modifications made - is what validates its correctness & originality. The correct parts per car don't define originality (as made it came off the assembly line) only correctness (as Ford would have built it).
--
Unless one (owner or critic) knows the complete documented history of the car, it is no different than the one parked next to it.
--
The story of this car, as I recall having read it, was that the owner crashed the right front fender into a tree, lost his love of driving and stored it in the barn (see photo), I think it was stated as 1911. The car was retrieved about 2018-19 I think. The car has been restored - new paint, top upholstery, rebuilt mechanical and an original right front fender. Don't have a picture to share now.
--
--
The Barn --
pulled out of the barn --
the dealership where it was purchased and the car in front of it --
In the shop for restore --
Just one of the pictures of getting "restored" --
--
For now its life will be in a museum, another barn for another 100 years. No parades, no shows.
So how does this make you feel?
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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- Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2024 12:02 pm
- First Name: Gregory
- Last Name: DeKeyzer
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923, aka Dust Bowl Special, very low mileage original 1915 roadster & an IKEA truck (IKEA because I have to put it together...)
- Location: New Iberia, LA
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Maybe you should list the name(s) of the club(s) that snubbed you so people can avoid them. You have a beautiful car and you should be rightfully proud! Now, if you had put a chevy engine in the car, the abuse would be justifed... 

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- First Name: john
- Last Name: karvaly
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 14/15 wide track roadster. 23 touring, 27 roadster pickup, 20ish rajo touring
- Location: orange, ca
- Board Member Since: 2020
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
A couple big mouths dont spoil a whole club. As in regular life, you avoid the jerks.
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- First Name: Bryan
- Last Name: Tutton
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Model T
- Location: Southwest, MI
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
I started restoring my 1914 Touring by finding the manufacturing date (October 1913) and was determined to make sure every nut and bolt was correct. I was pleased to find out how many original parts were there and how correct the car was. I worked hard to make sure everything I did was correct. As I got closer to finishing the car I realized how impractical this car would be if I was driving it a lot on modern roads.
.
So, I decided that Henry would approve of some upgrades for safety.
1. Rocky Mountain brakes
2. Black Firestone tires instead of smooth white ones
3. Turn signals and brake lights
4. I even replaced the burners in the headlights with halogen bulbs
5. I have nice brass mirrors so I can see what is happening behind me
.
The car has no charging system, is crank start only, has clincher rims and puts out the same amount of horsepower as it did 100 years ago. But, it is so much safer to drive.
.
Is it original, no. Do more people get to see it because I am able to drive it to work during the summer when it is nice out....yes. Isn't that what we want for the hobby?
.
I think any T that maintains the spirit of an original T is awesome and should be taken out into the public whenever possible.
.
.
So, I decided that Henry would approve of some upgrades for safety.
1. Rocky Mountain brakes
2. Black Firestone tires instead of smooth white ones
3. Turn signals and brake lights
4. I even replaced the burners in the headlights with halogen bulbs
5. I have nice brass mirrors so I can see what is happening behind me
.
The car has no charging system, is crank start only, has clincher rims and puts out the same amount of horsepower as it did 100 years ago. But, it is so much safer to drive.
.
Is it original, no. Do more people get to see it because I am able to drive it to work during the summer when it is nice out....yes. Isn't that what we want for the hobby?
.
I think any T that maintains the spirit of an original T is awesome and should be taken out into the public whenever possible.
.
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- Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2023 1:49 pm
- First Name: Vincent
- Last Name: Ryan
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1913 TOURING CONVERSION
- Location: El Cajon
- Board Member Since: 2023
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
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- First Name: Tom
- Last Name: Rootlieb
- Location: Ohio
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
My car is just like Steves. The only REAL 1909 parts are the front and rear axles, the steering column and the windshield. Otherwise it is all new manufacture. So is it a kit car? A reproduction? A recreation? A restoration? Yes. It checks all those boxes. It has a 27 engine, so if I blow it up-no big. It was built my way, for me to enjoy. No one else paid for it, so I didn’t consider anyone else’s wishes. But I think the most important thing is that here is a car that never existed- till now. While history and provenance are important attributes to some cars. My granddaughters bouncing like jumping beans in the back seat and honking the horn mercilessly while laughing to no end is this car’s provenance. And like Steve said, it’s the journey of the build that is so fulfilling to those that are creative. And we are
a group of creative souls.-
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- Location: Moline IL
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
--NorthSouth wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:36 pm-
Here is a touchy topic for discussion;
Since finishing restoration and then taking my new "pride and joy" out on tours, it, and I, have been ridiculed by some in our local Clubs for bring a "piece of $#!%" or a "Faux Eleven", or a "Hodgepodge" or a "Disneyland car" to the event. The kicker was when a long time and respected Model T-er said that my "T" is "bad for the Club".
members
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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- Posts: 81
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- First Name: Donncha
- Last Name: OapostropheMurchu
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 Speedster
- Location: Brookline, Mass
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
None of their cars have original oil, gas or air in their tires.
I would bet the insides of the engines contain non original parts as well.
Some people are so small and pathetic they have to criticize other to feel like a man.
I would bet the insides of the engines contain non original parts as well.
Some people are so small and pathetic they have to criticize other to feel like a man.
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- Location: Graham, Texas
- Board Member Since: 2021
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
I've heard there is a genuine, all-original 1912 car of some make aboard the Titanic. I haven't been down there to check it out.
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- First Name: George
- Last Name: House
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: ‘10 Maxwell AA, ‘11Hupp Model 20, Two 1914 Ford runabouts, 19 centerdoor, 25 C Cab,26 roadster
- Location: Northern Caldwell County TX
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
I’ve snorkeled down there to see it Pat. It WAS a 1910 Brush but the front axle and frame were GONE.
A Fine is a Tax for Doing Something Wrong….A Tax is a Fine for Doing Something RIGHT 
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- Posts: 7391
- Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
- First Name: Pat
- Last Name: McNallen
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
- Location: Graham, Texas
- Board Member Since: 2021
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
...darned scrap pickers!!!
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- Posts: 1906
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:22 am
- First Name: craig
- Last Name: leach
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1919 Firetruck/1922 Speedster
- Location: Laveen Az
Re: Is a 1911 Built With Many NonOriginal Parts Worthy of Being Here?
Not scrap pickers wet termites.
Craig.
Craig.