The Model T ignition was needlessly overcomplicated

[Fordwright]

Hindsight is 20/20, but the Model T could have had direct magneto ignition from the outset. Spider Huff did a good job designing the ignition system that had been around since about 1900, but there wasn't really any need for the way it was made in 1908. All that was needed was a simple magneto, driven off the engine, and connected directly to the spark plugs. Unfortunately, that type of magneto ignition was patented and very expensive at that time. Ford did use that type of magneto on the Model K in 1905, but it was just too expensive for the Model T.

Ford could have implemented a simpler system like we have on most small engines today. As it was, the low-tension magneto generated low voltages, which then had to be boosted with the four ignition boxes. Permanent magnets on the flywheel would run directly past the ignition coil, inducing voltages high enough to spark. It would fire on the exhaust stroke as well, but that does no harm. I guess Ford missed a trick that time.

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/5 ... 1459395956

[RecklessKelly]

By the same token a 3 speed gearbox would have been better than the planetary transmission but more dependent on close tolerance parts that were properly heat treated.
The simple systems that they used were cheap to manufacture and the car would still limp home if a part of it broke down, like a band or a coil.

[Steve Jelf]

Sometimes Ford engineers "invented" their way around patented features to avoid the expense of paying royalties. An important factor in Ford's success was cutting unnecessary and avoidable expenses.

[Charlie B in N.J.]

Steve has it. Occasionally something comes out that’s so great others try to duplicate it going around any patents in the process. The kick your foot under the bumper to open the tail gate is a recent one. You had to be able to offer this feature. It’s that popular. Another was the 1940 introduction of the 3 speed hydromatic trans on the 1940 Oldsmobile. Other companies paid for the right to product that trans under different names until they developed own. It was that popular. Now stop and think about how none of the systems on the T were ever adopted by other companies. Mostly because they were out of date when introduced and cost was a contributing factor.

[Chris Barker]

I can understand why the 1908 Ford had the system it had.

But I have never understood why, for 1919, when Ford added the 6v generator and starter, with battery, they did not take the opportunity to just fit a normal distributor and coil. The cost savings would have been enormous - no 'magneto' coils or magnets - or setting up, no more trembler coils at 4 per car. One set of points instead of 4 etc.

[Susanne]

Ford was still making profits off a development 14 years old - why throw away a golden goose? Plus - part of the selling point of the T was it ran WITHOUT a battery. For a farmer in the age of pre-electrification, this was a BIG deal - and Ford sold a lot of cars and chassises and trucks with that in mind...

Why not put a separate magneto on a Briggs and Stratton powered lawn mower? Or a battery distributor on the same thing? Because you can pull start the mower, just like you could "pull start" the car. And many did just that. Extra crap to malfunction when the system, old as it was, worked!

You have to think not in 2024 terms but in 1915 terms.

[TXGOAT2]

The Ford system was reliable and easy to diagnose and service. Ford was set up to manufacture it in mass quantities at very low cost. It weighed about 70 pounds less than a battery/coil/generator outfit, and was less likely to fail out on the road.

[TXGOAT2]

The Hydramatics had 4 speeds and both a front and rear pump. Two pumps made it possible to start the car by pulling it at fairly low speeds.
I had one of them in a 1952 Cadillac and it was the best automatic I've ever owned. It it could easily be adjusted for different engines and different driving styles, and it produced very firm, quick shifts under acceleration and smooth shifts at part throttle. The later, twin coupling Hydramatics were also 4 speed, but 1-2 and 3-4 shifts were much more vague.

[Chris Barker]

"The Ford system was reliable and easy to diagnose and service. Ford was set up to manufacture it in mass quantities at very low cost. It weighed about 70 pounds less than a battery/coil/generator outfit, and was less likely to fail out on the road."

True in 1908, but for 1919 everything was different.

[TXGOAT2]

Ford policy was to avoid change, and it was based on a number of good principles. Many century-old Ford coils are still in service today. Rather than change the familiar, inexpensive, and versatile ignition system, Ford would have done better to adopt a counterbalanced crankshaft, but I think Hudson owned patents on that, so.....
It's interesting to note that the multi-coil ignition system is becoming commonplace again.

[TXGOAT2]

In 1919, close to half the cars on the road used the Ford system successfully, and the Ford engine was the same low speed, high torque engine as before. Given the sheer number of Ford systems in service by 1919, Ford would have been obliged to manufacture and stock parts for it for a long time to come, as well as for any new system. Parts are still being manufactured for it today, a century after the last Ford cars were equipped with it. The decision to equip the Model A with a conventional clutch and sliding gear transmission probably finished the flywheel magneto.

[Norman Kling]

Some of the earlier automatic transmissions or semi automatic transmissions were no good even up until the 2018 or later, the Buick transmission was terrible. I finally quit buying GM cars when two Buick transmissions failed. The older Hydromatic was a bit better but no good for starting by pushing in low! I had a Cadillac with Hydromatic which had a low battery. I tried to push it with a Model A but couldn't get up enough speed to start the Cad in high so I shifted to low and blew the transmission. The Fluid Drive Chrysler cars had a problem with getting stuck between gears and coasting in neutral. The modern Automatic transmissions are much better. I had a 53 Ford V8 convertable with automatic transmission. My friend had a 6 cylinder 53 Ford with 3 speed stick which could do circles me.
Norm

[John Codman]

I agree with the OP, but Steve is correct - Henry hated to pay licensing fees and royalties. His long-range goal which he never achieved, was to have Ford make everything in his cars.

[Fordwright]

Sometimes Ford engineers "invented" their way around patented features to avoid the expense of paying royalties. An important factor in Ford's success was cutting unnecessary and avoidable expenses.

That's probably what they did, but I think they would have made more headway with a high-tension magneto connected directly to the spark plugs. As it was, using a low-tension magneto, then converting it to spark voltages with four separate buzzer boxes seems a bit convoluted and needlessly expensive. Ford certainly wasn't afraid of a patent fight; he beat the Seldon Patent and tried to run rough-shod over the Robertson screw head, before he lost. He probably could have built his own high-tension magneto and won that patent fight.

[TXGOAT2]

The single coupling Hydramatics would start by pushing. I had a '54 Fordomatic and liked it. 3 speeds. I've driven a lot of junkyard cars, and never had an automatic go out. Buick Dynaflows were smooth to a fault. NO gears in Drive. I had a '51 Dynaflow 8, and if you put it in low up to about 30 MPH, it would move pretty good. The Mopar semi-automatics behaved similarly. A 1950 or so Hudson with the big six with a hydramatic behind it would be a great car to have.

[TXGOAT2]

High tension mags did about the same thing as the Ford system, with permanet magnets, a low tension winding, and a single high tension coil and one set of points. Many of them used an impulse coupling to start, which the Ford system did not need. A failure of the points, condenser, or high tension coil in a magneto or battery system would stop the car, whereas a Ford could continue with one or even two coil units dead. Ford coils were readily accessible for diagnosis, service, or replacement.

[Tadpole]

If there was a more profitable way of doing things, I’m sure Henry and his men would have done it. To my understanding, if profitability had never decreased Ford would have produced the Model T so long as Henry was alive.

[Fordwright]

Personally, I think Henry Ford was a bit afraid of electrical machinery. He was hired by Edison to work on the steam engines, not the dynamos.
Spider Huff was given the task of designing the ignition system for the Model T, but I think his skill level was about 20 years behind the times.
Henry Ford was happy to call it good and move on from there.

[John kuehn]

Fordwright is right when Ford called it good when Spider Huff designed the Model T ignition system. It may have been a little behind in design but for what it’s worth after nearly 100 years later it was good enough to sell over 15,000,000 Model T’s. As most of us know by now it was really hard for Ford to start up grading his cars in 1926. By that time to keep up with other makers he had to do it.

[Fordwright]

Fordwright is right when Ford called it good when Spider Huff designed the Model T ignition system. It may have been a little behind in design but for what it’s worth after nearly 100 years later it was good enough to sell over 15,000,000 Model T’s. As most of us know by now it was really hard for Ford to start up grading his cars in 1926. By that time to keep up with other makers he had to do it.

Steam engines built 200 years ago still work, but does that make them not obsolete?

[Kerry]

By no means classified a little behind in design back in the day, published in 1918, all about ignition systems of all that was manufactured, the Ford system was quoted as a very ingenious application, its design eliminated the driving connections that get out of order and cause trouble. The magnet weight is added to the flywheel so the combined weight of the two being that of an ordinary balance member used on any engine of equal power.

[TXGOAT2]

Henry Ford was a farm boy who had great success building a practical, rugged, versatile, and relatively inexpensive vehicle for farm families. He was fascinated by things both mechanical and electrical, particularly generators, and he installed power plants at his factories and at his homes. He was a close friend of Thomas Edison. The early Model A cars featured a large diameter "powerhouse" generator that was unique to Ford. He was not very concerned about "style" or "seasonal fashion", so his products had a function over form appearance during his most influential years. He intended that his cars sell at a low price and be capable of giving service anywhere, on road or off. Ford cars built through 1948 all shared the basic 1907 Model T layout, and they shared the model T design philosophy of quality, simplicity, and durability, with a rugged, proven, high clearance chassis capable of handling muddy, rutted roads. It wasn't until 1949 that Ford offered a truly "modern" car and joined the parade of often radical yearly model changes. The Model T remained both available and close to ideal for general service in much of rural America from its debut through and beyond the WWII years, due to often poor roads and economic conditions.

[TXGOAT2]

I believe that Ford was more interested in serving his primary customer base, farmers and rural people, than in keeping up with other carmakers or catering to the whims of colorists and stylists. Modern cars require modern roads, and many Americans did without modern roads until after WWII.

[Fordwright]

Growing up on a farm, all our small engines had points and condenser ignition, which required a low-tension power source from a separate generator. Nowadays, they are much simpler. Just a magnet on the flywheel, rotating past a high-tension coil, connected directly to the spark plug. The low-tension stage is unnecessary.
Surprising that it took so many decades for this to become obvious.

[Norman Kling]

When the magnets are charged, the magneto works very well and is semi automatic spark advance. As the speed of the engine rises, the spark will come earlier on the sine wave. Also very easy to repair along the road by carrying one or two known good and properly adjusted coils, just fine the one which is not functioning and replace with a different coil. The timer can be replaced along the road if necessary by carrying a good spare along. These days the distributor is not easily repaired along the road and most of todays auto parts stores do not carry parts for the ancient distributors which were converted to work on a Model T. A few spare coils and a spare timer and a few spare spark plugs under the seat or in the tool box and away you go.
Norm

[TXGOAT2]

Until rather recently, small engines (Briggs Stratton, etc) used a permanent magnet embedded in the flywheel and a set of points, a condenser, and a low and high tension set of coils mounted on a common laminated steel core. That's essentially the Ford system. Late model small engines have a "magic box" that replaces the points and condenser, but they still use the permanent magnet, primary/secondary coil, similar to the Model T.
Old engines often used "low tension magnetos" with an external, low tension induction coil and a mechanically-operated set of points ("Igniter) located inside the combustion chamber. Many popular Farmall and other tractors used a "high tension magneto". The popular 9N / 2N / 8N Ford tractors usually had an automotive type ignition system with battery/generator/starter.
Others old stationary engines had a "high tension" magneto with low and high tension coils inside that fired a spark plug. WICO was a well-known brand. This type had either a rotary or a linear motion. Other systems used dry celsl or other type batteries and a Ford coil to fire a spark plug. Yet others used a "hot tube" heated by a small burner for ignition and had no electrical equipment at all. Still others used a "hot bulb" or flame licker" arrangement.

[TXGOAT2]

As far as I know, all common "High tension magnetos" for single or multi-cylinder engines consist of permanent magnets and both a low and high tension coil, usually combined, a set of points, and a condenser. That's essentially the same as the Ford T system. The point set in the modern style magnetos performs the same function as the vibrator points on the T coil. The Ford system distributes the low tension current to each of 4 coils, and the modern high tension magnetos distribute the high tension current from a single high tension winding to each spark plug.

[DanTreace]

The Model T low tension flywheel magneto and independent 4 coils and timer was a very effective system for ignition and certainly not needlessly overcomplicated.


The system up to 1919 did not need the storage battery for lights and starter to remain in good condition, even without the battery, the ignition would still work.

That could not be said for cars that required a battery for ignition, early cars used dry cell (non-rechargeable ) batteries for ignition source. Early cars were normally found on the side of the road not lacking oil, water, or gasoline, but the dry cell batteries were drained dead.

Typical battery systems of ignition for cars, the early Atwood Kent used dry cells, the others use storage batteries and a charging system on the engine.
Click on image to enlarge

Here is the modern car in 1919, as published in Automobile Ignition and Valve Timing Starting and Lighting including the Ford System, J.B. Rathburn, Stanton and VanVliet Co, Chicago Publishers, 1919.

Now this is a complicated self-starting and lighting and ignition system IMO.

click on image to enlarge

The high tension magnetos are very elaborate in construction, delicate and use lots of expensive parts, plus need oiling for maintenance, which was not needed for the Ford flywheel magneto.

Only two things can go wrong on the Ford magneto, magnets can loose power, or output terminal can be shorted by fiber band lining debris.

Ford's Model T was built to be low cost vehicle with high reliability for the average citizen buyer, as opposed to the wealthy auto buyers who needed to have a mechanician to ride along on the jump seat in their expensive and complicated vehicles.

[Fordwright]

Since Ford never built a simpler high-tension magneto for the Model T, we'll never know.
By the time of the Model A, the low tension power system was intrinsic to the design, so points and condenser were the best way to go.

[TXGOAT2]

All Model A cars had starters, which require a storage battery and generator, while all Model T cars did not. The advent of the sliding gear transmission and flywheel clutch probably made the flywheel magneto impractical.

Did the early Model A "Powerhouse" generator use permanent magnets?

***Some pictures online indicate that it used both field and armature windings, so it would not have had permanent magnets like the T magneto.
It also used 5 brushes , and I think it's larger diameter wold have provided better output at low engine speeds than the more compact conventional units used later on. The pulley appears to be the same size as the later units used.

[Mike Silbert]

We tend to ignore a basic fact of the Model T.
For most of the production run Henry had a big problem, he could not build them fast enough.
The popularity caused a very rapid rise in sales and the production had to try to keep up.
He had such a large market share that today would call it a monopoly but it was based on having the right car at the right time.
We can debate how things could or should have been done but he did a really good job with what he had.
The Model T needed to be exactly what it was for the time.
The people spoke with their money then, and even today about these amazing vehicles.
Yes, it could have been different but would it sold as well then and would we love it as much today?

If you want needlessly complicated look at the vehicles made today

[Fordwright]

All Model A cars had starters, which require a storage battery and generator, while all Model T cars did not. The advent of the sliding gear transmission and flywheel clutch probably made the flywheel magneto impractical.

By 1919, Model Ts had electric starters and batteries, which could be used to run the ignition buzzer boxes. It might have been better to have had the electric starter earlier, but the famous price point may not have been hit on the original 1908 model, and the car may not have launched the niche that made it so popular.

[Fordwright]

We tend to ignore a basic fact of the Model T.
For most of the production run Henry had a big problem, he could not build them fast enough.
The popularity caused a very rapid rise in sales and the production had to try to keep up.
He had such a large market share that today would call it a monopoly but it was based on having the right car at the right time.
We can debate how things could or should have been done but he did a really good job with what he had.
The Model T needed to be exactly what it was for the time.
The people spoke with their money then, and even today about these amazing vehicles.
Yes, it could have been different but would it sold as well then and would we love it as much today?

If you want needlessly complicated look at the vehicles made today

A lot of companies nowadays know that the lowest price in the market will rule the roost. It's a winning strategy.
But was that the goal of Henry Ford?
Did he really want to help the poor masses (as he claimed) or was he trying to become the world's richest man?

[Fordwright]

If you want needlessly complicated look at the vehicles made today

Do you think modern cars would be more successful if they were simpler?
I tend to think they have already simplified the manufacture as much as technology will allow, while providing the features that the consumers demand.
The '64 Chev Impala was a simpler car, but who would buy it nowadays?

[Tadpole]

We tend to ignore a basic fact of the Model T.
For most of the production run Henry had a big problem, he could not build them fast enough.
The popularity caused a very rapid rise in sales and the production had to try to keep up.
He had such a large market share that today would call it a monopoly but it was based on having the right car at the right time.
We can debate how things could or should have been done but he did a really good job with what he had.
The Model T needed to be exactly what it was for the time.
The people spoke with their money then, and even today about these amazing vehicles.
Yes, it could have been different but would it sold as well then and would we love it as much today?

If you want needlessly complicated look at the vehicles made today

A lot of companies nowadays know that the lowest price in the market will rule the roost. It's a winning strategy.
But was that the goal of Henry Ford?
Did he really want to help the poor masses (as he claimed) or was he trying to become the world's richest man?

Why not both? I think everyone generally likes to think they are doing the right thing, and everyone likes making money. I don’t completely understand the fascination with vilifying the old guy, he wasn’t without his faults, but he accomplished quite a bit more than I ever will. And this club has his name in it.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Why not both? I think everyone generally likes to think they are doing the right thing, and everyone likes making money. I don’t completely understand the fascination with vilifying the old guy, he wasn’t without his faults, but he accomplished quite a bit more than I ever will. And this club has his name in it.

Agreed. It's what revisionist historians love to do. Seems that tearing down the people who helped to build America is very "on trend".

[Charlie B in N.J.]

You might have high and mighty goals framed and hanging in the work area but if you’re not making $ they won’t be there long. So make a product that sells and get rich from it. As to coil vs. distributor: both are simple. If you understand them. No need to repeat that it’s fact. Just carry a few of this or a few of that and off you go. It’s the same for both systems. Your preference apparently as so many T’s were converted.

[TXGOAT2]

I would be very happy to have to opportunity to buy most any pre-1972 car, newly-manufactured, using the exact materials and design as was used then. I think 1955-1957 Chevrolets, for instance, would sell very well today, as would a number of other American and foreign made favorites. Of course, it would be ILLEGAL to manufacture and sell or to import these cars today in the Land of the Free.

[TXGOAT2]

Ford put everyday Americans on wheels. He didn't make much off any particular individual customer, but he had a LOT of customers. His profit per car in the Model T era was very low, but his product offered solid VALUE, which customers recognized, and sales were very strong. No one was forced to buy a Ford car, new or used, but many millions CHOSE to buy Ford cars. It would be instructive to read the very early advertising put out by Ford Motor Company. It's readily available. It would be interesting to calculate the average net revenue per car that actually went into the Ford family coffers during the Model T Era. I suspect that it was a surprisingly small sum. Beyond that, no one was ever forced to work for Ford Motor Company.

[Mike Silbert]

If Ford was only in it for the money he would not have cut his prices every time he could. He also paid his workers more than anyone else basically giving money away. No one is without faults, but he did a lot more good than almost anyone.
He made and sold what the public wanted and bought.

At shows and events I hand crank start my favorite car (26 touring) and then start removing coils one by one. No one can believe it will still run on one cylinder. The design is amazing and the proof is that after 100 years the design has returned in modern engines. The change is it is now run by an electronic computer and not the computer between the drivers ears.
These cars were built at a time where most people did not have electricity and even rarer phone service. Paved roads did not exist outside of the towns and cities. Before the Model T most people lived their entire life within 25 miles of where they were born. The world was a completely different place and these cars were a perfect fit.

As far as selling old cars today government regulations prevent that.
But in the USA there is a huge market making new bodies for old cars in fiberglass.
We also can buy a brand new steel bodies for some Jeeps, Chevrolet, Fords, and I think Dodges.
There are also multiple companies that are taking classic cars and adding a modern chassis like could not be built today.
Some are done poorly but a lot of them are done really well.
Years ago a brand new Model A Ford was built and taken to a high end event. When it won the stock class and then discovered to be completely brand new it created quite a lot of issues.
The classic car market is quite strong today. So yes they do sell and can sell for as much or more than new cars.
The referenced 1964 Impala in very good shape sells for around $50K, a lot more than a Model T

I prefer to drive old cars and my current commuter car is a '93 Plymouth with a stick shift and hand crank windows.
The newest in my lineup is a 1994 F150. To me newer cars are overly complicated and I do not buy them.

Long live the antiques and classics. Keep history alive by keeping them on the road.

[Fordwright]

We tend to ignore a basic fact of the Model T.
For most of the production run Henry had a big problem, he could not build them fast enough.
The popularity caused a very rapid rise in sales and the production had to try to keep up.
He had such a large market share that today would call it a monopoly but it was based on having the right car at the right time.
We can debate how things could or should have been done but he did a really good job with what he had.
The Model T needed to be exactly what it was for the time.
The people spoke with their money then, and even today about these amazing vehicles.
Yes, it could have been different but would it sold as well then and would we love it as much today?

If you want needlessly complicated look at the vehicles made today

A lot of companies nowadays know that the lowest price in the market will rule the roost. It's a winning strategy.
But was that the goal of Henry Ford?
Did he really want to help the poor masses (as he claimed) or was he trying to become the world's richest man?

Why not both? I think everyone generally likes to think they are doing the right thing, and everyone likes making money. I don’t completely understand the fascination with vilifying the old guy, he wasn’t without his faults, but he accomplished quite a bit more than I ever will. And this club has his name in it.

I think some of it comes from his vehement antisemitism, his cozy friendship with Hitler, and his brutal treatment of striking workers.

[Fordwright]

If Ford was only in it for the money he would not have cut his prices every time he could. He also paid his workers more than anyone else basically giving money away.

The Ford PR department may want you to believe that, but the truth is that the assembly line was brutal on most workers. He couldn't keep workers from constantly quitting. Only the few who could handle it were given the higher wage.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstal ... you-think/

[TXGOAT2]

Henry Ford, and other "robber barons", so-called, did Humanity more good than any 100,000 Eleanor Roosevelts ever did.

[Tadpole]

A lot of companies nowadays know that the lowest price in the market will rule the roost. It's a winning strategy.
But was that the goal of Henry Ford?
Did he really want to help the poor masses (as he claimed) or was he trying to become the world's richest man?

Why not both? I think everyone generally likes to think they are doing the right thing, and everyone likes making money. I don’t completely understand the fascination with vilifying the old guy, he wasn’t without his faults, but he accomplished quite a bit more than I ever will. And this club has his name in it.

I think some of it comes from his vehement antisemitism, his cozy friendship with Hitler, and his brutal treatment of striking workers.

The whole Hitler situation and the German Eagle bestowed upon Ford is always inevitably brought up, and I think that’s a bit underhanded. Hitler and the Nazis have become the go-to Devil to sully anyone’s name. Hitler was Time’s Man of the Year in 1938, the same year he awarded Ford the German Eagle. Anti-Semitism was nothing new and common at the time, and many a blind eye was given to the Third Reich’s persecution of said peoples, not to mention the mass deportation of fleeing German refugees.

For all his good and bad qualities, Ford was a man of principle that had a vision. His vision was not beneficial to everyone, and some of his methods were extreme, but he had the means to enact them. I don’t think there are many people that blindly worship the man, he’s a double edged sword, like many of this nation’s “great men”. As others before me said, hindsight is 20-20

[Tadpole]

Additionally, I don’t think “cozy friendship” accurately describes the relationship between two men who never met. I imagine being admired by a powerful world leader instilled some pride in the Pre-War Mr. Ford, Post-War not so much.

[Fordwright]

Additionally, I don’t think “cozy friendship” accurately describes the relationship between two men who never met. I imagine being admired by a powerful world leader instilled some pride in the Pre-War Mr. Ford, Post-War not so much.

I don't think Herr Hitler would have had Ford's portrait on his wall, and his book on his desk, if the admiration wasn't mutual.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Additionally, I don’t think “cozy friendship” accurately describes the relationship between two men who never met. I imagine being admired by a powerful world leader instilled some pride in the Pre-War Mr. Ford, Post-War not so much.

I don't think Herr Hitler would have had Ford's portrait on his wall, and his book on his desk, if the admiration wasn't mutual.

Who cares what that maniac had on his desk or on his wall. This is a Model t forum!

[Tadpole]

I definitely agree with you the admiration was mutual. *Pre-War

[Tadpole]

Additionally, I don’t think “cozy friendship” accurately describes the relationship between two men who never met. I imagine being admired by a powerful world leader instilled some pride in the Pre-War Mr. Ford, Post-War not so much.

I don't think Herr Hitler would have had Ford's portrait on his wall, and his book on his desk, if the admiration wasn't mutual.

Who cares what that maniac had on his desk or on his wall. This is a Model t forum!

Jerry you are right, I am getting off-topic, but this is fine discourse!

[Fordwright]

Additionally, I don’t think “cozy friendship” accurately describes the relationship between two men who never met. I imagine being admired by a powerful world leader instilled some pride in the Pre-War Mr. Ford, Post-War not so much.

I don't think Herr Hitler would have had Ford's portrait on his wall, and his book on his desk, if the admiration wasn't mutual.

Who cares what that maniac had on his desk or on his wall. This is a Model t forum!

I happen to enjoy some of the tangents that stem from the original posts, but you are right; the link with Hitler is weak and falsifiable. Nonetheless, Henry Ford developed into quite a bad actor in his later years. Other examples of this type of corruption of character are Thomas Edison and Elon Musk (in my humble opinion at least).

[TXGOAT2]

Joe Kennedy was a Hitler booster, and so was Charles Lindberg. Wasn't Albert Khan, Ford's favorite architect, Jewish? Ford was anti-war.

[Tadpole]

“The man who really counts in the world is the doer. Not the mere critic, the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly." -Theodore Roosevelt.

[TRDxB2]

The Model T was Ford's first automobile mass-produced on moving assembly lines with completely interchangeable parts, marketed to the middle class.
Henry Ford said of the vehicle in his 1922 book "My Life and My Work"
I will build a motor car for the great multitude. It will be large enough for the family, but small enough for the individual to run and care for. It will be constructed of the best materials, by the best men to be hired, after the simplest designs that modern engineering can devise. But it will be so low in price that no man making a good salary will be unable to own one – and enjoy with his family the blessing of hours of pleasure in God's great open spaces.

The Ford Model T was designed by a team of people, including:
Childe Harold Wills: An engineer
Joseph A. Galamb: A Hungarian immigrant and the main engineer
Eugene Farkas: A Hungarian immigrant
Henry Love: A member of the team
C. J. Smith: A machinist
Gus Degner: A member of the team
Peter E. Martin: A member of the team
Gyula Hartenberger: A Hungarian immigrant and fellow immigrant of Galamb's
Károly Balogh: A Hungarian immigrant and fellow immigrant of Galamb's
Henry Ford: The designer of the Model T engine

If you consider the effect of paved roads had/have on vehicle design & speed, its easy to see why vehicles have become more "complicated". In addition peoples jobs, non-mechanical, have taken them away from maintaining their own vehicles and has been noted vintage vehicles & reproduction parts for them.

[Fordwright]

If you choose to believe only the positive spin, that's your choice. I don't, but neither do I believe the worst.
I happen to believe that the truth resides somewhere in between, and I feel the more I learn, the closer to the mark I come.

[Tadpole]

Amen Fordwright, I look forward to your next thought provoking thread!

[Art M]

With any project, there are those who wonder what is happening, there are those who watch it happen, and then, there are those who make it happen.

Art Mirtes

[Fordwright]

With any project, there are those who wonder what is happening, there are those who watch it happen, and then, there are those who make it happen.

Art Mirtes

For those at the creation of the Model T, it must have been an exciting time to be making history,
but just as heartbreaking when it all went downhill afterwards as a result of Henry Ford's direction.

[RecklessKelly]

Give the Model T itself credit for inventing paved roads, by virtue of a dozen oil leak points. A dirt road frequently travelled in T's probably had a hard smooth dust free surface that withstood heavy rains. "Pave as you go".

[TXGOAT2]

It hardly went downhill. People were moving to town, roads were getting better and more extensive, and competition was getting fierce in the low price field. Traffic speed and density were both increasing rapidly. Ford responded with the Model A, which was every bit a Ford car, and very similar to the Model T in its basic layout. It carried forward the virtues of operating economy, simplicity, serviceability, durability, and low first cost, It was hardly a failure, and neither was Ford Motor Company. Under Henry's direction, Ford, unlike many, many competitors, survived the Depression while continuing to offer a solid line of basic, practical cars, while expanding into the mid-price and luxury markets with considerable success.

People are fickle,and ot always practical-minded. They complain that cars lack style, power, and pizzaz, so you bring out a line of long, low, V-8 showboats dripping with chrome, in 3 colors, and offering more options than a Vegas Cat-house, and what do people do? They howl that it is too flashy and too expensive and uses too much gas. So you bring out the Falcon, and now what? They want an air-conditioned rolling living room with 400 horsepower. Give 'em that, in spades, and they go buy Hondas and Volkswagens. No pleasing 'em!

Today, many people drive snub-nosed, hatchback type vehicles that owe a lot to the AMC Gremlin in basic layout, or pickup trucks with a cabin similar to a 1950 Chrysler crossed with a 1959 Cadillac. The beetlecars are quite functional.So are the pickup trucks, which make fine family vehicles for a couple with kids and dogs, or ranchers and such like who put them to harder uses. People don't want sedans, and Camaros are out of production again. Convertibles are rare. What's next, assuming people retain the freedom to choose? There's just no telling.

[Tadpole]

With any project, there are those who wonder what is happening, there are those who watch it happen, and then, there are those who make it happen.

Art Mirtes

For those at the creation of the Model T, it must have been an exciting time to be making history,
but just as heartbreaking when it all went downhill afterwards as a result of Henry Ford's direction.

It certainly wasn’t heartbreaking for Mr. Ford, FoMoCo was one of the biggest automakers in the country in 1909, by the time of all the heartbreak it was the undisputed king.
I will agree that the Model T was produced far beyond its obsolescence, but if Mr. Ford had his way automobile technology would have peaked with the T. I am under the assumption that he believed the T was all anyone would ever need in an automobile, inline with his vision for an America full of self-sufficient Americans.

[Tadpole]

I think many others can agree that the T was obsolete before they even did away with the brass radiator, but by that time Ford’s massive infrastructure negated any cause for major change, they only grew more profitable (up until the long battle to have Mr. Ford change his ways). I believe Mr. Ford was a smart man.

[Fordwright]

With any project, there are those who wonder what is happening, there are those who watch it happen, and then, there are those who make it happen.

Art Mirtes

For those at the creation of the Model T, it must have been an exciting time to be making history,
but just as heartbreaking when it all went downhill afterwards as a result of Henry Ford's direction.

It certainly wasn’t heartbreaking for Mr. Ford, FoMoCo was one of the biggest automakers in the country in 1909, by the time of all the heartbreak it was the undisputed king.
I will agree that the Model T was produced far beyond its obsolescence, but if Mr. Ford had his way automobile technology would have peaked with the T. I am under the assumption that he believed the T was all anyone would ever need in an automobile, inline with his vision for an America full of self-sufficient Americans.

When his own wife had to threaten leaving him to make him acknowledge that it was time to update the Model T, it's an indication that all was not well with Mr. Fords cognitive abilities.

[Tadpole]

I will disagree with you on that, ego and a stubborn streak have been the downfall of many otherwise smart men. Maybe Henry’s vision wasn’t “right”, but it was what he wanted.

[Bill Dizer]

It would seem that the lack of reliability in high tension magnetos of the day has been disregarded. In the early days of automotive history, the contact points were of very poor material for the needed amperage and constant beating they took. Coils failed regularly (and still do) due in part to high internal temperature, vibration, and moisture. There was a long search for a contact material that would hold up reliably, platinum was used but was rare and expensive and tungsten was the eventual winner. When the high tension magnetos failed, you generally walked, since repairing them on the side of the road was difficult. On the model t, you replace a timer, a roller, swap coils, clean a pickup connection, or even run home on a battery, but again, you drive home. There are fewer moving parts in a model t system than in a high tension mag. Distributer systems had the same points contact issues as the mags, plus external coil failures, cap and rotor material failures, plus you had enough current draw to need a source of power to charge the battery that had to be there, even without a starter. Up into the early seventies, before electronic ignition systems became common, a points ignition car, running on leaded gas needed a tune up every ten thousand miles. The points were shot, the plugs burned down to nubs. I was a mechanic full time then and still am. I am good friends with the owner of a local shop that does a large number of magneto repairs for antique equipment and cars. I have seen the failures personally. I watched he and his late father restore a mag for a rumley oil pull tractor that no one else would even look at.

[Fordwright]

It would seem that the lack of reliability in high tension magnetos of the day has been disregarded. In the early days of automotive history, the contact points were of very poor material for the needed amperage and constant beating they took. Coils failed regularly (and still do) due in part to high internal temperature, vibration, and moisture. There was a long search for a contact material that would hold up reliably, platinum was used but was rare and expensive and tungsten was the eventual winner. When the high tension magnetos failed, you generally walked, since repairing them on the side of the road was difficult. On the model t, you replace a timer, a roller, swap coils, clean a pickup connection, or even run home on a battery, but again, you drive home. There are fewer moving parts in a model t system than in a high tension mag. Distributer systems had the same points contact issues as the mags, plus external coil failures, cap and rotor material failures, plus you had enough current draw to need a source of power to charge the battery that had to be there, even without a starter. Up into the early seventies, before electronic ignition systems became common, a points ignition car, running on leaded gas needed a tune up every ten thousand miles. The points were shot, the plugs burned down to nubs. I was a mechanic full time then and still am. I am good friends with the owner of a local shop that does a large number of magneto repairs for antique equipment and cars. I have seen the failures personally. I watched he and his late father restore a mag for a rumley oil pull tractor that no one else would even look at.

The simplicity of modern ignition systems seems to have taken a long time to develop. They started to appear on small engines about 35 years ago, as I recall. They do away with breaker points, condensers and cam shafts. It consists very simply of a magnet attached or embedded in an aluminum flywheel, which rotates past a high tension coil, producing high-tension spark voltages. It happens every revolution, sparking on the compression stroke and once again on the exhaust stroke. Half the time, the spark is not needed, but it happens without consequence. This is much more reliable than the conventional points and condenser type, and rarely needs servicing.

Ignition systems on vehicles took a different route, but are no less reliable. They also allow for much more control over the ignition system, due to computer or microprocessor control.

The weak link for many years were the points and condensers. Both were prone to degrade, and likely to disrupt normal operation more frequently. More modern systems rarely experience ignition problems as in years past.

[Fordwright]

It would seem that the lack of reliability in high tension magnetos of the day has been disregarded. In the early days of automotive history, the contact points were of very poor material for the needed amperage and constant beating they took. Coils failed regularly (and still do) due in part to high internal temperature, vibration, and moisture. There was a long search for a contact material that would hold up reliably, platinum was used but was rare and expensive and tungsten was the eventual winner. When the high tension magnetos failed, you generally walked, since repairing them on the side of the road was difficult. On the model t, you replace a timer, a roller, swap coils, clean a pickup connection, or even run home on a battery, but again, you drive home. There are fewer moving parts in a model t system than in a high tension mag. Distributer systems had the same points contact issues as the mags, plus external coil failures, cap and rotor material failures, plus you had enough current draw to need a source of power to charge the battery that had to be there, even without a starter. Up into the early seventies, before electronic ignition systems became common, a points ignition car, running on leaded gas needed a tune up every ten thousand miles. The points were shot, the plugs burned down to nubs. I was a mechanic full time then and still am. I am good friends with the owner of a local shop that does a large number of magneto repairs for antique equipment and cars. I have seen the failures personally. I watched he and his late father restore a mag for a rumley oil pull tractor that no one else would even look at.

The buzzer-box system that appeared on the Model T originated around the turn of the century, and was based on older ideas. A vibrator had been used in prior years to produce higher voltages in various applications like spark transmitters and cattle prods, but a constant stream of high voltage spikes was more than was needed for automobile ignition. Breaker points were a weak point due to the inferior metallurgy at the time. The first impulse magnetos needed no breaker points at all. Neither do more modern magnetos. They simply induce a high voltage pulse every revolution.

[Bill Dizer]

Impulse mags like small engines and others run are useless in the current automotive world, where emissions are so strictly controlled. Timing has to be very precise.Even the wasted spark system of twenty years ago has gone by the wayside, due to emissions requirements. For its time, the T system worked (and still does) as needed. It put the world on wheels, was used all over the world in remote places where electricity was unknown, used by people in cities where service was available, and in rural areas by all types of people, like my late grandfather who wouldn’t drive anything but a T! I till have his last one, a 25 coupe, in the garage. It was the right system at the right time for what it was used for. Certainly, by the end of the T production run, better systems were available but retooling the engine and not the rest of the car wouldn’t work. Factor in the industrial expansion of the twenties, the social changes that automobile’s brought, the rapid change in road conditions, the speed that technology was changing the automotive world, and it would take millions to keep up. Ford fell behind and it took years to catch up.

[Susanne]

If you think about it, the Autosynchronous Ignition System on a T was the same as a modern one... Except... the coils were in a box on the dash (or over the engine) instead of on the plugs. The firing impulses were generated my a magnetic impulse fed to coils that generated the pulse that energized the coils that sent a spark to the plug. There were 3 (theoretically 4, but one was so far out it was essentially useless) impulses for each time a cylinder came up on its firing stroke, the timer is what controlled which impulse delivered the spark. If your car is running well, you can actually hear and/or "feel" the "changeover" from one magnet to the other as you advance or retard the spark. Pretty stinking cool when you first "get" it. It's also kind of the same system as a "conventional" (Bosch, Dixie, Splitdorf, etc.) Magneto.

Nowadays they use a computer to generate the impulse (timed by sensors or yep, even a "distributor") in place of the relationship between the horseshoe magnets and coils and etc. It was a freaking ingeniously good system in the very early 1900's, and is still one in the early 2000's.

What to me is even more interesting - the couls both operate off the AC impulses of the magneto, AND will operate (almost) equally well from a DC applied current, creating its own make and break (eg the "buzzing coils"). The AC field is what makes and breaks the points on mag, ergo is somewhat self contained - on mag the coils (as far as I could tell, and I've been listening for years) don't "buzz" like they do on Bat.

Anyway, this is all somewhat acedemic, suffice it to say the system was remarkably well designed to use both a impulse-generated current surge, reversing directions 16 times per revolution, and a DC battery courrent.

[Fordwright]

Henry Ford was well known for sticking with something long after it was obsolete. In the mid 20s, his Ford Tri-motor was cutting-edge, but by the early 30s, it was hopelessly outclassed by Douglas aircraft and others. He only reluctantly closed down his airplane operations because it had no market and was bleeding vast amounts of cash. This occurred after he was forced to abandon the Model T, so perhaps it was "lesson learned."

He could have hired a competent electrical engineer, and modernized the ignition system, but his attitude was "good enough - job done." Not that there was much wrong with the Model T ignition system, but it could have been upgraded to a simpler and cheaper system; more reliable and lower cost.

[TXGOAT2]

The Ford system did a very good job, and Ford sold a great many 1925-26-27 cars. Support for the Ford system brought in more money during the 1930s and 1940s, when a great many Model Ts remained in service. As for adopting the self-starter, early systems very very complex and not very reliable, and many people had no way to charge a battery, and they often needed it. The starting system Ford eventually adopted was reliable and comparatively simple. A dead battery did not strand the vehicle. Ford continued to sell new cars without starters for those who did not want them or who felt they could not afford them, and any Model T with the starter/generator could still be used if the starter, generator and battery were out of service, or even if the entire system is removed, which is easily done and which reduces the car's weight significantly. I don't see any good reason why Ford ought to have changed it. During the 1920s, General Motors was a formidable competitor, in spite of a number of blunders in the Chevrolet Division. GM competed at all market levels, while Ford had no mid price offerings. During this period, many makes went out of business entirely, never to return. Ford did not. Work on the Model A probably began around 1924-1925, and Henry Ford's influence on the car is very clearly evident.
It's worth noting that GM put a great many carmakers in all market segments out of business even into the 1950s, and while Ford survived and prospered, joining the model year change race and offering cars in all price ranges did not put Ford back in first place. I seem to have read somewhere that the 1957 Ford out-sold the 1957 Chevrolet. If true, that's quite remarkable. The 1949 Ford was a better offering than the 1949 Chevrolet, regardless of the flathead engine. Henry Ford built Ford Motor Company and sustained it through some very turbulent times.

[Fordwright]

According to my dad, back in the day, sometimes a Model T would start itself when you turned on the ignition. I suppose everything had to be in perfect alignment for that rare event to happen. But if the distributor and the pistons were in the right position, just the battery power was enough to create a sparking arc on a spark plug. If there was sufficient fuel in that cylinder, I suppose it could fire up.

[Fordwright]

"Good enough" is just good enough.
"Excellent" is excellent.

[Tadpole]

The Duesenberg was an excellent car, lasted shy of two decades.

[Fordwright]

Ford was too much of a perfectionist for his first two companies. His partners were fed up with him not meeting deadlines.
I think he learned to finalize his projects with his third and final company. Maybe a bit too much.

[TXGOAT2]

A Ford T will often start itself if it has a battery on board. Mine often does, and some operators can get a "free start" almost every time. My car has a performance cam, which probably doesn't help free starts, but it will do it anyway, often as not.

[TXGOAT2]

Well, Ford was a really terrible guy, just horrible, and his products were behind the times and they were so elaborate and delicate and over-priced that most people could not keep them in operation long enough to get any use out of them! Experts have yet to determine why anyone ever bought one of his cars. In all of automotive history, perhaps only the (Americanized) Yugo can compare!

[TXGOAT2]

The truth is, Ford had a winning way with automobiles and with automobile manufacturing and marketing, and when his partners became an obstacle, he bought them out. His continued success, and that of his company, in an era when auto makers were springing up like weeds and withering away just as quickly, bears witness to the wisdom of Henry Ford's handling of Ford Motor Company.

[Fordwright]

I don't want to deify Henry Ford, nor do I want to vilify him. But it wouldn't be fair to gloss over his faults, nor would it be right to glorify him. He was what he was, like most of us, a blend of good and bad traits.

[Tadpole]

Fordwright, I suppose that is your mission here? To knock him down a peg?

[Fordwright]

Fordwright, I suppose that is your mission here? To knock him down a peg?

No more than he has earned.

[Tadpole]

I respect your confidence and willingness to engage in open conversation. You’ve got some stiff opposition here, but I’ve enjoyed learning your perspective.

[TXGOAT2]

Billy Durant got a LOT of abuse from other people in the GM organization. Auto workers' disdain for management was not limited to Ford employees.
Henry Ford was not of a mind to turn over the company he built to anyone. I don't consider that a character defect. He was a Car Guy, if there ever was one, and he was also a good businessman and a good executive. His company survived during times when many other auto makers did not.

[TXGOAT2]

Ford was not a good place for a slacker to seek employment. Ford had no need for excuse-makers. He was a pioneer in company-provided social services and education.

[Tadpole]

Ford was not a good place for a slacker to seek employment. Ford had no need for excuse-makers. He was a pioneer in company-provided social services and education.

From what I’ve read, and as you’ve shown in previous posts to this thread Mr. McNallen, Mr. Ford hired many hardworking immigrants. He also spent a great deal of money to “Americanize” them while they worked for his company. I do believe some of his methods were extreme, but it was his vision and his money. After all, no one was forced to apply to FoMoCo.

[Charlie B in N.J.]

Yeah a tough call about HF. Honestly I’m glad I never had to work for him. Seriously. I think at the time of the 3rd company forming Clara said shut up and go with it. This might be your last chance. Walking in one day after years of resistance about replacing the T he suddenly says let’s do it. Clara ? Suddenly one day allowing the union in after fighting like hell to keep them out? Smells of Mrs. F yet again. I’ve read plenty about HF and I’m pretty damn sure there’s only one person he actually heeded. Guess who. One last thing : I assume she was present and influential in ‘45 when HF2 took over.

[Fordwright]

I respect your confidence and willingness to engage in open conversation. You’ve got some stiff opposition here, but I’ve enjoyed learning your perspective.

I have no axe to grind. I'm only interested in facts.

[Tadpole]

I respect your confidence and willingness to engage in open conversation. You’ve got some stiff opposition here, but I’ve enjoyed learning your perspective.

I have no axe to grind. I'm only interested in facts.

Then don’t read what I write! The only facts I know are I know nothing, and Jesus loves you.

[Fordwright]

When you research everything you can lay your eyes on, there's a chance not all of it is BS.

[Tadpole]

When you research everything you can lay your eyes on, there's a chance not all of it is BS.

That’s true, but how does one sort out the one truth from the other truths? Or the half-truths? Or the untruths? Or the double-truths?

[Fordwright]

When you research everything you can lay your eyes on, there's a chance not all of it is BS.

That’s true, but how does one sort out the one truth from the other truths? Or the half-truths? Or the untruths? Or the double-truths?

You try not to guess.

[Poppie]

Susanne Dec 02 4.01am.
Mr Rohner,
I feel that you are one of the only few people that know the workings of the Model T ignition system. .....n

[Susanne]

Who is "Mr. Rohner"? Did my brother show up here? Know it's not dad, he passed a couple decades ago.

[Fordwright]

I don't know the secret of filtering the truth from the trash on the internet,
But I know for sure, the wrong way is to pick only what you want from it.

There's a reason your mom didn't let you pick what you wanted off the plate and ignore the rest.

[big2bird]

" Everything on the internet is true." Abraham Lincoln.

[TXGOAT2]

In that regard, it ought to be noted that President Lincoln kept two goats in the White House.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Is this still a Model T forum?

[Fordwright]

Is this still a Model T forum?

There are still plenty of relevant topics for you elsewhere.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Is this still a Model T forum?

There are still plenty of relevant topics for you elsewhere.

Well, bless your heart.

[Susanne]

Hey, wait!!! Did this just become the FB group? Kinda curious, as I expect this kind of "stuff" over THERE, not here.

Y'alls jes' so CUTE.

[Fordwright]

You don't need to participate,
if it's not your cup of tea.