Wishbone comes up short

[Eric Sole]

My car used to track just fine, but after the rebuild, the steering is fairly squirrely. The springs have been re-arched, new perches, new spindle bolts, new shackles, pretty much everything has been replaced.

The spindles are now showing about 2 degrees of inclination. I loosened the wishbone at the engine pan, and the front axle immediately sprang to 5 1/2 degrees of inclination. The wishbone ball is about 2 inches lower and 1/4 inch forward of its socket on the pan. If I force the ball back into its socket, the axle inclination is back to 2 degrees of inclination, both because the ball socket if raised and because the bottom of the axle is being pulled backward, thus tilting the axle forward.

I've removed the front spring lower clamping piece, and the spring tie bolt is loosened slightly in an effort to allow the axle to "shift" rearwards, but it doesn't seem to help much.

If I force the wishbone ball back into its socket and find a way to have the front axle bent at its perches to a 5 1/2 inch inclination, the ball will pull the socket forward constantly. Is this setup OK? If not, I will need to move the socket forward, which would require moving the engine and rear axle forward, so that doesn't sound like the answer, or somehow lengthen the wishbone.

I hope there is a simple solution eluding me that someone out there has encountered.

[Humblej]

Can you post some pictures of the front axle and spring perches.

[RajoRacer]

Sounds as though you have the perches reversed ?

[Eric Sole]

The spindles are tilted rearward at the top.

Here are some pictures before the installation.

[TRDxB2]

Check your current perch setup to the "before" picture you included. It shows the correct perch position with the boss facing the rear

[1923Touring]

Eric, I had a similar issue when I did the car. You should still make sure all of your parts are assembled properly, or are not damaged. However, I found that the frame was sitting significantly higher with no weight from the engine and body, so the wishbone would not align properly.
I would like to think if you were to apply some weight in the front half of the frame things would line up-- especially since you just re-arched your front springs.

-Joshua

[Wayne Sheldon]

Always nice to see you posting here Eric S! For newer regulars on this forum Eric used to live in the United States, and was very active with the model T hobby, participating on this forum often. Then family and circumstances had him moving to Spain, and he took his model T with him!

I am glad to see you working on the T. Looks like you are doing a full restoration now.

The problem you are having is a common one. Over half a century of use, even metal can shift around and settle a bit. The usual tendency is when assembling the chassis, one tends to bolt the front spring and other pieces together tightly individually. The better way is to assemble all parts loosely, then tighten all bolts as an assembly. It is likely that the front spring is tweaked slightly in the frame, and loosening the spring's clamp in the frame might allow you to pull the front axle back enough to slip the wishbone ball into its socket.

Front axle caster may be a separate issue. Do make certain that the spring perches are in the correct way. If one or both are in backwards? That can throw everything out of place. (I had a front axle years ago that had two perches were for the same side, one was in backwards)
If the perches are in correctly, and frame cross member and other things close to right? The wishbone may need to be tweaked (bent) a bit. Repair shops many years ago used to have wrenches or special levers that could adjust that angle cold. And sometimes they would make an adjustment to compensate for some sort of damage (like a sagging frame?) that could cause a problem if used in another car later.
Without those special wrenches (they are heavy and about four feet long), you will probably need to use heat if you have an adequate torch. I have found that axle and wishbone off the car, and do one side at a time, works well. Using the two "flats", leave one bolted tightly to the axle, remove the tapered nut from the other. Anchor the axle to the ground, maybe park a car wheel onto the other end of the axle (may need something under the axle end to keep both ends down?). Using the loose side as a guide, heat the topside of the wishbone about one inch behind the axle, to just red hot. Push/pull the wishbone a small amount in the appropriate direction to increase or reduce caster as needed. DO NOT bend much! The flat on the loose end of the wishbone can guide you in how much to bend it.
After doing the one side end, switch around the bolted and loose ends, as well as the anchoring of the axle if needed. Heat the now bolted tight end of the wishbone, again topside and about an inch behind the axle. This time instead of the loose end guiding by adding some angle, push/pull the heated wishbone in the appropriate direction until its flat is even with the axle.

That was how I fixed the caster on one of my Ts that had too much caster. Except that I heated the underside of the wishbone to shrink the underside so that it would reduce the caster instead of increasing it.

[Ed Baudoux]

As Josh Hawkins suggested, the problem will go away when the engine, body, and fenders are installed.

[Dennis Prince]

If you replaced the wishbone there are 2 different sizes (early and late) because of the height of the springs, if you have the short one on with a high spring it will drive terrible and be hard to assemble.

[kmatt2]

Eric, from your close up picture of the front spring it shows the boss to the rear, as it should be, for both sides. Re-arching the spring would have required taking the spring apart. Make sure that upon reassembly and installation in cross member that you got the head of the spring center bolt to go into the cross member hole properly. The wishbone 1/4 inch off at the engine pan is not all that uncommon, try loosening the spring shackle bars, they could be binding at the spring and spring pearch some. One last thing, I see that you have a 1926-27 frame, the crown of the 1926-27 front spring is lower than the pre 1926 spring. Make sure that your spring wasn’t a pre 1926 that upon re-arching made your ride high to high.

[Norman Kling]

:Likely., no problem. The weight of the engine, transmission and body will pull things in line. The crankcase should be installed to the engine and transmission and the 4th main aligned with the nose of the engine down. Then install the entire unit into the frame. The weight should push the spring down which will cause the ball on the wishbone to line up with the socket. Over the years I have pulled out not only my own engine but those of other T owners. it takes the weight on the frame to push down the front spring That will automatically push the wishbone back toward the socket.
Norm

[speedytinc]

Quite common for the wishbone mount on the pan to be pushed in a bit from a front end hit in the last 100 years. 4 dip pans push in easy. That problem is not obvious from your picture.
Force the ball into the socket & bolt it down. If a long bar isnt enough, use a couple of ratchet tie down straps. After the car is fully assembled check & adjust accordingly. KRW made a long bar for this purpose. I use a 4' pipe wrench just out from the wishbone axle mount. Do it COLD. That bends the wishbone ends. Aint no big deal. Nothing to worry about.

[Eric Sole]

Thanks for all your replies and thanks Wayne for the introduction . It's taken me 16 years (blush) to get the car back on the road after a broken low drum put it out of commission. It's mostly back together (need to do the top and few other things) and I am doing short drives to break in the engine and drivetrain.

I am posting some more current pics. You will see an old, unpainted wishbone bolted to the front axle for some comparison checking, but it looks pretty much the same in length and angle as my original.

I don't remember having to force the axle and wishbone into place, but it's been years now so...

With everything loosened up, my plan is to try to work the spring leaves and axle rearward so the wishbone ball might come closer to fitting into its socket. I'm concerned with putting the socket under a constant strain which is only going to get worse (I think) when the bottom is bent even further forward in order to adjust the spindle inclination.

Everything fit fine when I took it apart, the spring arching surely has a lot to do with this. At first I felt like the spring was too high, but the chassis height corresponds to the factory specs.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Your T is looking great in the more recent photos!

[speedytinc]

If you replaced the wishbone there are 2 different sizes (early and late) because of the height of the springs, if you have the short one on with a high spring it will drive terrible and be hard to assemble.

Never heard of this. Do the parts books show 2 different units?
Is there documentation/proof of this?

I have done quite a few motor R&R's. This gap is common.

[Allan]

Likewise John. I too have no knowledge of two different under axle wishbones.

Allan from down under.

[Ken Buhler]

If you look back through old discussions on this subject, you will find different lengths. More importantly, there are two different angles of the flat where it fits against the axle. The last one issued was for the "improved, lowered" 26/27 units. Another thing overlooked is whether or not the crankcase socket is punched in from repeated impact. I replace the balls and have found these differences.
Ken Buhler

[Eric Sole]

Ken, thanks for your input.
It makes sense that the 26-27 models would have a different angle on the front radius rod (wishbone) where it mounts under the spring perches, but I have not seen any reference made about this nor can I find it in the parts catalog.

If someone could provide the lengths of the 2 different versions of the radius rod that would be of great help.

[Allan]

Both caster and camber are to be set once the car is fully assembled and all the weight of the body and engine are contributing to the car's stance.
Camber is adjusted by bending the axle. Caster is adjusted by bending the radius rod. These operations are done with all parts in-situ, as assembled in the car. So the answer is to get it all together before making these adjustments.

Allan from down under.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Camber is adjusted by bending the axle.

Allan from down under.

Camber is "set" by properly rebuilding the axle and straightening it to factory specs. The proper camber angle is built into the spindles. Once the axle is properly aligned and if the camber angle is still "off", it's usually due to a bent spindle, which should then be replaced.

[Eric Sole]

Here are some pics of the ball socket, maybe better trained eyes can see if it is pushed into the crankcase at all.
The starter motor is wearing a diaper until I get the seal on it.

[Dennis Prince]

I have included pictures of a short and a longer wishbone, I had the short one on my car and it was hard to install and was dangerous to drive, I compared it to the one that came off of the same car and it is about 3/8" shorter. When I put a longer one on it drove just fine. I don't know what it is off of but it is for sure shorter

[Eric Sole]

Dennis, my original wishbone on the car measures 27 3/16" at the rear of the ball when placed on the ground as in your pictures.

The other one I have measures 26 15/16", but this one has a bit of a bend on one of the arms, so that may be the reason it's shorter.

[Allan]

You are correct Jerry. Camber is set by the spindles. However, for this to be accurate, you need an axle with original factory specs. Sure, the axle needs to checked/straightened/not twisted/king pins aligned etc. Correcting this means bending the axle so that it confirms with the specs.
Given a reworked axle, and everything else all up to specs, there should be no problems with camber. In reality, there is usually room for improvement when all is assembled.
Caster is set by spring perches and the radius rod. But. the service book states, "it can be adjusted by slightly tilting the front axle with a straightening bar until the correct adjustment is obtained."

Allan from down under.

[ewdysar]

Ford made a tool to adjust caster...

(picture lifted from Lang's Old Car Parts online catalog)

Keep crankin',
Eric

[Eric Sole]

That's a pretty cool tool to have, but it's going to more than double in price to get it to my neighborhood.

For those of you who have used this specific Model T tool, is the 48" handle enough to do the job, or does it need to be extended even longer with a pipe or such? I'm thinking of borrowing a large pipe wrench, but need to know how long of a handle might be necessary.

[speedytinc]

That's a pretty cool tool to have, but it's going to more than double in price to get it to my neighborhood.

For those of you who have used this specific Model T tool, is the 48" handle enough to do the job, or does it need to be extended even longer with a pipe or such? I'm thinking of borrowing a large pipe wrench, but need to know how long of a handle might be necessary.

I add a 4' pipe making the total about 6'.

[Dennis Prince]

I went to Harbor Freight and got 36in pipe wrench put a 3ft pipe on it and that worked great.

[Eric Sole]

I found a 36 inch wrench online for about 60 bucks, but it's got an aluminum handle. Sounds a little scary, but maybe it'll work for a one-time job.

Has anybody used a pipe wrench with an aluminum handle for this job before?

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Without rereading this whole thing, have you actually gotten the ball in the socket and driven the car? It's 100% what I would do first before wrenching & bending. The ball, as you show it above, is really not so far off. There have been many that were way worse than that.

[Eric Sole]

Before the restoration the car tracked very nicely and, if I removed the wishbone ball cap, the ball was perfectly aligned with the socket.

During the restoration I replaced the spindle bushings, spring perches, steering support bushing, steering box gears and pins. I adjusted all the play out of the steering linkage. The front spring was re-arched, raising the height of the frame.

Now the ball does not align with its socket, and when I pull it back into place, the 5 degree positive caster is reduced to 2 degrees positive caster. I think this is what is making my steering squirrelly.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Before the restoration the car tracked very nicely and, if I removed the wishbone ball cap, the ball was perfectly aligned with the socket.

During the restoration I replaced the spindle bushings, spring perches, steering support bushing, steering box gears and pins. I adjusted all the play out of the steering linkage. The front spring was re-arched, raising the height of the frame.

Now the ball does not align with its socket, and when I pull it back into place, the 5 degree positive caster is reduced to 2 degrees positive caster. I think this is what is making my steering squirrelly.

I think maybe you had your spring re-arched too high. The 26/27 T's had a lower arched spring. It's the only change you mentioned above that would change the caster angle.

[Allan]

Eric, The photo shows the ball forward of the socket, but not by much. Was it the same once you had the body on the frame and the fully assembled motor in place? This will add considerable weight to the front spring, making it sit lower. From there it should not take much to set the ball home.
You mention adjusting the steering linkage in the rebuild. If you are talking about the tie rod, its length can be adjusted, but it does not take out any wear. Only spindle new arm bushes and pins can do that, if the eyes at the end of the rod are in order. Then the tie rod is adjusted to get the correct toe-in.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

[Eric Sole]

Just for the record, my car was fully assembled (except for the top) from the start of this post. The component pictures are from the restoration process.

I raised the front wheels off the ground, checked for any play in the steering and found a little knocking noise when turning the steering wheel back and forth. As it turns out, I had fitted the steering rod ball cap ends with the inner concave surfaces painted. The paint had begun to wear through, effectively creating a loose fit at these two points. I cleaned the paint off, regreased and refitted the caps. No more knocking noise, and the steering mechanism moves freely and smoothly left and right.

I had loosened the spring clip in the hopes that things might move rearward and help the wishbone to align with the ball socket. I then referred to the Ford manual for reassembly:

Since it says “draw nuts down tightly”, I did just that and found that the nuts went further onto the spring clip than previously. I added a couple of washers to the spring clip nuts to align the cotter keys with the castellated area of the nuts. Maybe I didn’t apply enough pressure during the assembly during the initial reassembly after the restoration or perhaps the spring has flattened out a little since the re-arching.

So, on the subject of re-arching the front spring. The car may sit higher than when I left the factory, I can’t be sure because I don’t know the standard height of the 27 Roadster. I used an extendible stick to measure from the floor up to the bottom of the frame, just behind the riveted end piece and in front of the screw holding the hood shelf. You can see the orange handle in the picture.

The measurement at this point just after assembly of the car was 22 3/4 inches and now, after driving around a little is 22 ¼ inches, so it has dropped ½ an inch. Maybe it will settle in a little more. If someone has the correct factory frame height specs for the 1927 Roadster, I would appreciate seeing them in order to know if I will need to “un-arch” the front spring.

I also took a measurement at the bottom of the starting crank on my car which is 19 3/4 inches in case somebody might have a properly arched front spring and the chassis height is correct and they want to send me their car's height at this spot, this is an easier place to access since it doesn't require getting underneath the car.

It’s been rainy and I don’t have the top on, so I have yet to take the car out and see if the tightening of the spring clip has fixed some or all of the squirrelyness. I am hopeful for a marked improvement in the handling, even if the caster is only 2 degrees instead of the 5 1/2 degrees cited by Ford. This will be duly dealt with as soon as I can locate a large pipe wrench.

To be continued…

[speedytinc]

You can expect your T to be squirrely until you get the cant back to 6 degrees.
Removing the paint made the ball joints loose, enough for a knocking noise - they aren't tight enough. Grease has become a temporary buffer/filler. The slop remains.
I wouldnt sweat the spring arch. It is what it is now.

[Dan Hatch]

Can’t tell from your pictures, but it that axle a real 26/27 Front axle? I have had more than one person bring me a front axle off their 26 or 27 to fix and the axle is just a pre 26 straight axle.
I don’t know if they came that way but 26 was when Ford went to the lower front axle. Maybe the axle was changed over the years, who knows. Just asking. Dan

[Eric Sole]

The front axle has been on this car since at least 1965. I think they are interchangeable for all model years.

The spindles are 26-27 style, so the axle stub is dropped 1 1/2" instead of being placed in the center of the spindle like the previous models were. That's what gives the later cars that sporty, lowered chassis look

[speedytinc]

Thats part of it. Also the spring has much less arch. The front spring looks near flat straight.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Thats part of it. Also the spring has much less arch. The front spring looks near flat straight.

Yes. As I mentioned, and as John has mentioned, the 26/27 spring is much flatter and the arch is more in the axle beam than the spring. I measured the distance from bottom edge of the front crossmember to the top of the axle on my '26 Fordor. It's roughly 2-1/4". The same dimension on my '25 Touring is about 3-1/4".

Have you double checked your toe-in measurement?

[Dan Hatch]

Here is a thread about front axles.
https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/4 ... 1411832467

[Eric Sole]

That's a great reference on the front axle types, thanks Dan. My axle is straight, so the swooped or dipped axles appearing in August 1926 either missed my car (engine date late September 1926) or else the axle has been replaced somewhere along the line.

Jerry, I rechecked the toe-in, it's at 7/32", right in the middle of the recommended 3/16" to 1/4".

[Ken Buhler]

Maybe this will help.

[Eric Sole]

Is that Ford info? I have the Encyclopedia, but never found this kind of information. Fantastic data to work with.
Thanks very much Ken.

[Eric Sole]

Removed the front spring and took measurements against the values on Ken's table:

The width between center of eyes is spot on.

The height is 8mm / 0.315 inches higher.

Since the car has already settled 0.50 inches since I started driving it (less than 50 miles), I'm counting on the spring settling into its proper height all by itself.

Again, thanks very much for the information Ken.