1909 Water Pump Engine Questions......

[VowellArt]

Been working on a project that is both rare and not much known (intimately) by most of the Model T world (with the exception of a few).

The 1909 Water Pump Engine! The first 2500 or so cars had this configuration which changed somewhere around 1911, to Thermosyphon )which the drawing I have shows), I have the 1911 which was (I think) a 1909 or 10 drawing that they just retraced and modified for the 1911 production year....but like I said, the drawing is modified, so what the 1909's may have had has been removed. But there is enough of the engine to get the basic layout (with the exception of the water pump).

My question is about the Valve and Lifter Guides? Were they pressed fitted or part of the block's casting. The valve guides, may have been cast with the block, but I'm pretty sure that the lifter guides were pressed in and I don't think there would be any need for sweat welding them in since the of the springs and retainer cup and pin would hold them in place (then of course they may not even have been pressed in at all for that matter come to think of it), lol.

I know what the Transmission and the 2 Lever Linkage looks like (just haven't drawn those two yet (Engine 1st, Trans 2nd and 2 Lever 3rd).
So, if any of you know or have pictures (preferably pictures or the engine drawing for 1909, that would be good too) of this engine and these parts, I'd love to see them, I know some of it and have drawn this block layout, but it is only bare bones (and please ignore the "ice blue" lines, they're some of my construction lines and won't be on the finished drawing. I also haven't put the threads in for the manifold studs yet either). I need to see what other components, besides the water pump and the 2 piece timer which I've already drawn (there's actually 2 different 2 piece timers, one being smaller than the other and without any wording on the cover).
It's taken a bit of time to get this far, but I'm hoping to complete it with the help of those of you who know this engine and how it was built, thanks.

[DanTreace]

My question is about the Valve and Lifter Guides? Were they pressed fitted or part of the block's casting. The valve guides, may have been cast with the block

A bare water pump block. Note the valve stem guides are cast and placed in upper bore holes and the lower bore holes for the lifter guides. Those bronze lifter guides were pressed in place.. EDITED. (Later post by Kim D. And Dan M shows parts.)

Image 6-23-25 at 10.02 AM.jpeg (52.79 KiB) Viewed 1308 times

[KimDobbins]

Here’s the lifter and valve guide. Notice the flat at the edge of the rim on the valve guide.

[Dan McEachern]

Kim- so it appears the tappet guide was pressed into the block from the cam side and not the valve side?? Was there a machined spotface on the bottom side of the block lifter bore to locate the tappet guide? It would appear so, but just wondering.......

[KimDobbins]

The lifter guides can go in either way, but they need to be flush with the base of the hole in the block. The valve guide must go in from the bottom of the valve chamber.

[VowellArt]

Okay, what am I seeing here, is the shiny looking thing a tube that goes over the other part or is it a dowel pin? Hard to tell from this picture (can't see the hole).

You said it can go in for either side, so the hole in the block must be the same size as that flange? And that flange has a flat side to key it fit into the block only one way? Is that the surface that must be flush with the block? Gee, the holes in the block don't look that large to me.

It looks to me as though the flanged part would go in from the underside of the block and that the shiny part (if a tube) would fit over it, pressed into the block, so that the top piece of the flanged part is showing like in the your top picture....right?

[KimDobbins]

The brass piece is a sleeve and is the lifter guide. ITT is cut to size and pushed into the block and the reamed and honed to size.

[KimDobbins]

This is the valve guide, it’s pressed in the block from the bottom up, reamed and honed to fit the valve stem.

[A Whiteman]

I hope these may be helpful (engine number 624)

[A Whiteman]

[A Whiteman]

[Dan McEachern]

I have a '10 block (10,XXX serial number) here that has straight lifter guides in it (no shoulder), but they are cast iron, not brass or bronze. Just throwing that out there. It appears the lifter guides do not have a shoulder on them to locate them in the block from what i can tell on this later block.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Not wanting to cause any significant thread drift. Just pointing out a statement error and giving its correction.

"The 1909 Water Pump Engine! The first 2500 or so cars had this configuration which changed somewhere around 1911, to Thermosyphon - "

The last of the "water pump" engines was installed in a model T in early May of 1909. The majority of 1909 model model Ts were in fact thermosyphon engines, as were all 1910 model model Ts.

[VowellArt]

Wayne, I found that out too, I just didn't think it was necessary to mention it here, because the drawing would explain that in it's title.

As I understand it, the front Cam Shaft bolt has a screw head and the middle one is a hex? I've even seen it as a stud with a nut on it. Is that some sort of fix that somebody made? Why wasn't the one in the middle the same as the one in the front (a screw head)?

Also the door on the Hogs Head opens by turning the hex head right? It's a simple turning bar, the Sides (locked), turn it 90º (front to open it) right? Otherwise the brake pedal and the Hi-Lo pedal work exactly the same as in the newer cars right?

On that engine profile picture that A Whiteman posted the fore and aft Manifold Clams are bent, so that there isn't an arm to hold the Intake Manifold with....is that common? From the Vendor's parts list they look to have two arms just like the newer cars did but with round pads and not the thick arm pad....which is correct?

[Wayne Sheldon]

Hey there Martynn!
I have very little real hands on experience with the very early model Ts. So most of what I know of them is from reading the books and forums over many years. So many details about them I am not familiar with.
Also, common or accepted "knowledge" about the early Ts has changed considerably over the past half century. That in itself causes me to question some of the things I "think" I know.
I am not sure exactly when the width of the back half of the engine pan and hogshead was changed to the wider dimension that continued through the end of production. However, I "think" it was somewhat later in or for 1910. Several changes were made in the top door/opening of the hogshead through 1909 and 1910. Most worked basically how you said.

I am not familiar with the camshaft bolts on the earliest engines.

As for the manifold clamps in the photos posted by Adria W (thank you Adrian for posting those!)?
Those clamps have been modified to aid in fitting and assembling the manifolds. The clamps are modified such that they can hold either the intake or the exhaust in place, leaving enough space to carefully fit the other manifold and make any necessary adjustments. Once fitting is completed, the missing and altered clamps are replaced one by one by unaltered clamps.

[VowellArt]

Okay, on the Lifter Guides, they're pressed in from the crankshaft side of the block right? It's the only way I can figure it you'd be able to make the bottom of the guide flush with the bottom side interior of the block.

Now as to the Valve Guides, which way does the flange flat face? Towards the cylinders or towards to the manifolds?

[KimDobbins]

flat on the guide faces the piston.

[VowellArt]

Thanks Kim!

Here's my work in progress....still need to add the springs, retainers and pins....but the more I look at this and the further I go, I am starting to see that I'm going to have to add a few things I hadn't planed on (cross sections of a valve line....the relationship of the valve to guide position in block, to spring, retainer, pin, lifter guide in block and the lifter) which means this is all likelihood is going to have to be a fold out, whither I like it or not. I just can't see a way round it....too many things going into the making of this engine from too many directions....well, tis as I always say....fun never quits (and it usually isn't easy either)!

If you see anything out of place, please let me know.