New Day timer brush question

[2727]

About 2+ years ago I installed a reproduction New Day timer assembly on my '26. Yesterday while wiping out the housing, I observed what you see in the attached photos. I was shocked. My best guess is there's only about 1000 miles since the timer install. Looking for opinions or any applicable advice.
Thank you,
Peter

[Rich P. Bingham]

Out of curiosity, what does the “race” look like in the timer body ?

Over 62 years ago I ran a used New Day in my first T. Great timer ! I fear that the reproduction units don’t equal the quality of the originals, especially the fit of the bronze brush in the rotor. I believe the originals were self-lubricating graphite bronze - the reproductions are not.

[Oldav8tor]

I've been using New Days exclusively for the 12000 miles I've put on the car. I use timers made by Tip Top Timers of Spokane Valley, WA exclusively. I've never seen wear like you've experienced and typically get around 5-6K on a brush - longer on the cap. I wonder what else might be going on here? I made this graphic a few years back.

[Rich P. Bingham]

Tim, that’s good news indeed ! I bought one from the folks in Spokane 9 years ago, intending to run it on my “new” ‘13 runabout. It was equipped with a TW Timer, which has given excellent service ever since, so I’m still holding the New Day in reserve . . .

[Steve Jelf]

There have been many discussions of New Day timers over the years, often with detailed pictures. You can spend a lot of time with Mister Google reading about these timers, but it all boils down to a couple of points. 1 There's New Day and there's New Day, sometimes excellent and sometimes miserable. Unsurprisingly, the miserable ones are reproductions. 2 In recent years the Tip Top Timer reproductions from Spokane have enjoyed a reputation for being excellent.

Even people who know their stuff can mess up, so it's possible you got a defective Tip Top brush. More likely, it's somebody else's repop. If you contact Mark, perhaps he can sort out your situation.

https://www.buzzfile.com/business/Tipto ... e_vignette

[2727]

Though I did not photo the housing, it looks Ok in my opinion, smooth all the way around. I have cleaned it previously and there was quite a lot of "dust" which I just attributed to the brush and cap breaking in. I purchased a spare brush a while back which I installed today. I'll keep an eye on it. I do feel the brush in the replacement seems to slide in and out more freely than the former.
Peter

[2727]

The timer in question came in a Tip Top box which I still have. The box has a date 1/13/2021. The replacement brush was purchased 2/13/2024. That's all minor info. I'm just going to keep a close eye on things.
Peter

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Does your camshaft have a lot of end play?

[2727]

No end play detected but I will double check next time I clean timer.
Peter

[RajoRacer]

Has your timing cover been "centered" with the proper tool ?

[TXGOAT2]

Another thing is coil adjustment. Coils that are out of adjustment can draw more current than they should and that can cause timer issues. Sticky points, poor adjustment, and probably a weak capacitor can accelerate timer wear. As noted above, several mechanical issues can also cause more rapid than normal wear. My timer troubles started with a coil problem (near-new set of points failed) and ended when I got properly adjusted coils in the car.

[TRDxB2]

There is a discussion about the brass vs bronze brush material. Yours looks like brass.
viewtopic.php?t=11075
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[John kuehn]

Bronze is a little harder material than brass. I’m thinking the originals were bronze. There were some repo brushes made that weren’t the best that were a replacement you could buy individually.

[Ed Fuller]

I have also experienced great success with the newest style of reproduction New Day timer offered by the T parts vendors.

I’ve been running one on my speedster for several years and have only noticed some minor wear and requiring very little maintenance.

[J1MGOLDEN]

There was a note 15 or 20 years ago that said the spring was too strong and you had to cut out two loops of wire to make it right.

[Oldav8tor]

People love or hate New Day timers. It usually comes down to original versus reproduction and if the latter, the quality of the reproduction. There were a number of attempts to reproduce the New Day in the past and they all pretty much missed the mark, until Tip-Top came out with theirs.

If you buy a timer kit from the vendors they usually come from Tip Top and contain their brush. If you buy a individual $10 brush from Snyders they are from an old reproduction and are inferior. Stick with Tip Top even though they cost more. The attached photo shows the two brushes - Tip Top on the left, Snyder's $10 brush on the right. Notice the different appearance of the metals used. Also notice that on the "S" brush there is less material between the pin and the bottom of the brush. There have been reports of the bottom cracking from the hole and breaking apart on the "S" brushes.

Another thing..... have you replaced the felt camshaft seal with a modern Neoprene one? That also entails removing the brass shield behind the cap and brush.

I get great results with my New Day's - My timer cover was installed using a tool to center it, my coils were rebuilt and adjusted by a pro, there is no end play on my camshaft, I have a modern camshaft seal and I timed the engine with the New Day from Tip Top in place. I carry a spare Tip Top cap and brush but have never needed to use them in 12K miles. Good luck with your issues.

[2727]

Timing cover is centered with the correct tool. I also measured the depth of the timer housing and the distance from the timing cover where housing sits to the outer edge of the newly replaced brush holder. Did not check dimension with problem brush. The difference is 1/8 inch which I feel is enough but not too much. Camshaft seal is modern style, no felt, no brass washer, no oil leak at camshaft. Coils all rebuilt and adjusted by Ron Patterson.
Peter

[Oldav8tor]

Sounds like you did everything right. It certainly is a mystery. One thing I do to the brush is round the leading edge of the brush slightly thinking that it will reduce brush and cap wear as it spins. Does it make a difference? No idea.

[Steve Jelf]

Shall we complicate the discussion? Some people will take the defective brush out of the rotor and toss it, and make a new one from an old generator brush. Apparently if you have the skill to make a good fit, it works pretty well.

[speedytinc]

Shall we complicate the discussion? Some people will take the defective brush out of the rotor and toss it, and make a new one from an old generator brush. Apparently if you have the skill to make a good fit, it works pretty well.

Yes it does. I have done several score this way. Zero wear to the timer body ever. Make the fit just enough to freely move.
The brush cant cock like OP's example.

[2727]

Making one's own brush sounds interesting to me. I think I am capable but don't have a brush. Going to a flea market this Sunday maybe I'll find one. Thanks for the Idea.
Peter

[Rich P. Bingham]

Timing cover is centered with the correct tool . . .

As a 14 year old lacking a lot of reliable information as to the care and feeding of my Model T, back in nineteen-ought-sixty-two, the necessity of centering the timing cover was unknown to me, with the result the original timer and roller ran off center and caused me a lot of grief. Switching to the New Day solved my problem, and while in later years I would certainly endeavor to be sure the timing cover was properly situated, I have the impression the New Day may be entirely forgiving of an off-center cover, owing to its right-angle approach to operation.
Similarly, it would seem the spring pressure arrangement of rhe brush would be equally forgiving of a minor amount of camshaft end-play.

Thoughts ?

[Original Smith]

I have thousands of miles with nothing but New Day timers. One point that has been overlooked is the brush. The original brushes are about 1/32" smaller across the top of the brush than the newer ones I've seen. I have a NOS brush in my hand now. I don't know if New Day ever made the wider style.

[Norman Kling]

Another thing which will make a great difference is whether you run on battery or magneto. On battery, the spark will come as the brush touches the edge of the segment in the cap causing a spark and burning of the segment. but if you run on magneto, the spark will occur when the AC amperage reaches the firing point of the coils which will be more in the center of the segment and no spark will occur at the edge of the segment in the cap. So it will last much longer if you run on mag.
Norm

[MKossor]

Coils all rebuilt and adjusted by Ron Patterson

Find someone in your area with an ECCT and have them tune your coils for equal and consistent firing time using an ECCT.

You will likely be amazed by the marked improvement in engine performance.

[dykker5502]

Lots of interesting points as I a couple of years ago bought a New Day timer expecting a maintenance- and trouble free operation. After all to few kilometers my brush looked like the one in the first entry:

ECCT adjusted coils and normally running on magnet. I cleaned up the timer to make sure it was smooth and clean and bought a new rotor with same result after few kilometers again.

Now I run the original type roller timer on all T's. I have though considered as Steve mentions make new brushes with Generator/starter brush material (not solid metal).

[speedytinc]

Your brush is worn down to where the brush holder has rubbed/scraped the contact face. That grey stuff is ground phenolic.
For this to happen the brush is mounted too far out. The brush holder should not be able to contact the face.
You probably have too much forward cam thrust movement & a possibly thicker timing gear thickness from a non stock gear.
I would guess that as new, the timer body "danced" with each revolution. You would need to solve the issue(s) to run a new day.
Otherwise, a roller timer would work better for you, as it is not as particular to in & out location/movement of the roller.
New day timers dont work in every situation or fix other problems.

[dykker5502]

Interesting viewpoint!! I'll check up on that, thanks!

[Allan]

When my son was doing his auto electrician's apprenticeship he had access to all kinds of generator and starter brushes. He would grind/file used ones down to make brushes for New Day timers, leaving the wire tails intact. These were soldered to the rotor body for a positive ground. at the same time he would use a lighter weight spring from a throw-away ballpoint pen.

Allan from down under.

[TXGOAT2]

I'd think 6 volt generator brushes would be a good choice. They have low resistance and are intended for extended run time on copper.

[JBog]

I'm curious about the history of infamous 's' branded New Days. When were those around? Were they made by the same outfit as today, just using a better recipe for the plastic?

[Oldav8tor]

"S" caps were sold by Snyders, before my time. That said, they still turn up on cars and at swap meets. They are made of a softer plastic and stand a little taller than they should. I've seen a couple with grooves cut into them by a fan belt as a result. The interior surfaces of the cap wear quickly leaving "bumps" where the contacts are that accelerate wear on the brushes as well. They can be identified by the "S" visible below the hole. They were not made by the folks from Tip Top timers. The "good" caps are made of a bakelite-like material. Hard and rigid. While we're at it, if you're at a swap meet and want to know if you're looking at an original cap, the little holes in the contacts of an original cap are square (second photo.) I've run an original cap on my car for a few thousand miles and compared it to a Tip-Top. The Tip-Top holds up as well as an original....maybe slightly better.

For what it's worth, one of the worst reproductions of a New Day is the "Best" - it really wears quickly. See how the plastic has been scraped out between the contacts. The debris piled up on the bottom edge is plastic. (Photo three)

From my comments you may think I'm a New Day nerd. Truth is, one came with my car and I've seen no reason to change. I collected the information I'm sharing from a "Shop Talk" I gave at the Piquette Ford Factory Museum in Detroit last year.

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[Eric Sole]

Tim, you posted “For what it's worth, one of the worst reproductions of a New Day is the "Best" - it really wears quickly. See how the plastic has been scraped out between the contacts. The debris piled up on the bottom edge is plastic.”
I assume you are referring to the marking on the original Snyder’s packaging:

I bought this New Day timer from Snyder’s in 2005 and drove 500 miles with no troubles until the transmission broke and the car was laid up for years during the repairs/restoration.
These are pics of that timer and brush as removed from the car:

My timer shows no appreciable wear after just 500 miles, but after reading about how the “S” marked units were prone to failure, I bought a TW timer, which is working fine.

[TXGOAT2]

A more precisely made rotor would probably be of benefit.

[Original Smith]

How come no one has posted a picture of an original New Day timer brush?

[Original Smith]

I just measured the distance across the face of a NOS New Day timer brush, and it is 7/16". I don't have a newer one to compare it to.

[Oldav8tor]

Eric,
Snyders may have sold the "Best" but I don't think they made it. I will admit some ignorance of it's history.

If you look at the picture of your "S" cap you can see the beginnings of plastic being pushed up over the contacts and on the face of the brush. Look back at my picture of a Tip-Top with 5400 miles on it. The contact margins are clean.

Below is a picture of a "S" cap showing more plastic migration.

I've also included a photo of an original and "S" cap viewed from the side. See what I mean about the "S" being taller?

Perhaps I should explain that I don't consider myself an expert on the New Day timer or any other. I'm simply sharing my experience and research...you can draw your own conclusions.

[Eric Sole]

Tim, you are the New Day timer expert in my book.

I now see the beginnings of the plastic being displaced on my timer, and that on a unit with so few miles on it! Makes me glad I popped for the TW timer.

I appreciate your observations and sharing your experience.

[Eric Sole]

Here are the measurements of the Snyder's brush sold 20 years ago.

[Eric Sole]

Oh, and the new brush extends out 1/4".

[Original Smith]

Where are you people coming from?

[Scott C.]

Larry, you should post pictures of that NOS New Day brush that you have. That way everyone can see it.

[love2T's]

Tim, you are the New Day timer expert in my book.

I now see the beginnings of the plastic being displaced on my timer, and that on a unit with so few miles on it! Makes me glad I popped for the TW timer.

I appreciate your observations and sharing your experience.

Eric...I'll chime in now cause I consider myself the consumate "TW timer snob"! There is NO better timer than it! Electronic excluded...that's not even close to apple to apple comparison

According to Tony (RIP) I was the "second buyer" from him when I realized what this timer would be like. I'll attach a pic of the TW on my '13 that has OVER 17K miles on it, and 3 brushes...the left one had 4K miles, middle 2K, and right one is new for comparison. I could run the left one even further.

WELL TUNED coils and proper timing are KEY also! But this timer design is just close to flawless. I tried a ND (not the "S" version) on my Fordor and it lasted barely 500 miles with requiring two "tear aparts" to keep it running. All I have to do with the TW is clean it every oil change, sometimes every other change. I will always run it! Nuff babbling. You get my point!

[Oldav8tor]

Is the TW still available? I see a website but couldn't find one in Langs or Snyders.

[love2T's]

Is the TW still available? I see a website but couldn't find one in Langs or Snyders.

Sadly no. I have done what I can having a run of the 2 brush styles to help keep those of us with this
great timer going. I pass on the cost with no profit, usually lose a wee bit in the shipping from shop to me but no big deal. I had a dozen custom made brush holders (rotors) made for the round style, I have 2 left. I have tinkered
with using the "ordinary" roller timer with good success as far as the wear on the internal ring. I believe it's a wee bit softer
than what Tony used, I think he used Micarta. I even have a sheet of Micarta in which to make up to 9 rings, just haven't found
a good fast source to get em cut out via CNC. Then I can re-vamp the roller timer with these. Just takes lots of time.

Again, and with all timers, keeping the coils in top condition is paramount.