A Ball Cap Quandary

[skyhunter]

So I was having great difficulty getting the bottom two bolts for the coupling ring to thread into the rear of the block. It was suggested that maybe the ball cap was clocked wrong and the hole was not at the top since the 4 holes are not all the same and that I might be able to turn it and make sure the hole is at the top. One can't see the hole because of the clutch spring and support. So now for sure the hole is probably not at the top since I rotated the ball cap.

Does anyone have a suggestion on how to make sure the ball cap is back in the right orientation? Anyone know the hole to hole distances for either the top 2 holes or the bottom 2 so I can measure and confirm possibly?

Thanks.

[George House]

In your first paragraph you state “the hole was not at the top.” I presume you’re referring to the threaded grease cup aperture. Yes, that’s the only way it can be placed. Enter the bottom 2 bolts into the crankcase first and refrain from tightening them. Then you should have enough ‘wiggle room’ to install the top 2 bolts, washers and nuts.

[speedytinc]

The bolt pattern in the ball cap is equidistant. it can be installed all 4 ways. You will have to pull it back far enough to see the oil hole if you want to be sure its on top. If there is a full oil distribution trough, you only need pull it back/out 1/4" or so.

[John kuehn]

If you have difficulty getting holes lined up on a ball cap or any other holes use a long taper punch or if you don’t have one a screwdriver can work also. The holes in a ball cap are identical distance to each other. Sometimes putting the ball cap bolts in put one in the bottom and then one at the top and cross ways from each other and not one at the top and one down below it. Which ever way as others have stated works for you that’s the way to do it.

[Dan Hatch]

Sounds like the 4th main is not centered with the pan. Has pan been on a pan jig? Was 4th main bored offset? Is the driven plate running true to transmission?
Lots on things going on there.

[skyhunter]

In your first paragraph you state “the hole was not at the top.” I presume you’re referring to the threaded grease cup aperture. Yes, that’s the only way it can be placed. Enter the bottom 2 bolts into the crankcase first and refrain from tightening them. Then you should have enough ‘wiggle room’ to install the top 2 bolts, washers and nuts.

No, I was not referring to the grease hole on the coupling ring but the oil hole on the ball cap. I never stated it was not on the top. Someone suggested it might not be and that the holes on the top are not the same distance between them as the ones on the bottom. But what do I know. BTW it is a 1916 block.

[JTT3]

Dan you posted it first but I was thinking the same thing, if the forth main did not go on with ease you’re looking in the future to significant engine problems. Best John

[skyhunter]

Speedy- OK thanks

John - I was thinking of taking a bolt and making a short stubby tapered alignment punch. Thanks

Dan - great, now I am really going to be up all night tossing and turning. LOL Engine was just rebuilt by a reputable machine shop so I hope so.

[speedytinc]

Dan you posted it first but I was thinking the same thing, if the forth main did not go on with ease you’re looking in the future to significant engine problems. Best John

Ill third this.
However, with the motor in the horizontal position, one must expect the ball cap to touch low from the unsupported weight of the transmission. Touching one side first is a strong indication of a misaligned pan. & yes even a slight misalignment can cause serious issues including a broken crank.
There is a tell tail clue.
If the babbit is sloppy from a wallering output shaft, thats a strong indication of a misalignment or an off square output shaft. Oil will have been washing away u-joint grease. Ball cap clearance is supposed to be rather tight: .0015"-.002"

[Dan Hatch]

Sounds like a job for (wait for it). TWO PIECE FLOATING TRANSMISSION SHAFT!

[skyhunter]

I am hoping part of my problem may come from the frame being on jack stands and the rear hanging and not sitting on the wheels on the ground.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I am hoping part of my problem may come from the frame being on jack stands and the rear hanging and not sitting on the wheels on the ground.

That is probabaly not just part of your problem, but perhaps all of your problem.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Dan you posted it first but I was thinking the same thing, if the forth main did not go on with ease you’re looking in the future to significant engine problems. Best John

Ill third this.
However, with the motor in the horizontal position, one must expect the ball cap to touch low from the unsupported weight of the transmission. Touching one side first is a strong indication of a misaligned pan. & yes even a slight misalignment can cause serious issues including a broken crank.
There is a tell tail clue.
If the babbit is sloppy from a wallering output shaft, thats a strong indication of a misalignment or an off square output shaft. Oil will have been washing away u-joint grease. Ball cap clearance is supposed to be rather tight: .0015"-.002"

Let's not get carried away. When did the OP ever state that the ball cap would not go in? He only said that the bottom two holes did not align. I believe his comment above, about the rear end hanging down while the chassis is jacked up, is the main cause of his issue.

[JTT3]

Jerry that could be some of it but you can see post several remarks was the first time we learned the T’s frame was lifted off the floor. With that known now the question begs for more information, Do the fourth main holes line up with the end of the hogshead/pan holes “within reason”? I must admit l don’t like that “” part. Mostly using Scat cranks I haven’t really seen the sag that we’re use to with orignal cranks. Best John

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Jerry that could be some of it but you can see post several remarks was the first time we learned the T’s frame was lifted off the floor.

Yes, an excellent point!

[Stephen_heatherly]

Without the coupling ring in place, do the bolts easily thread through the 4th main into the pan?

Stephen

[DHort]

If the engine was built by a reputable engine rebuilder, the 4th main should be in the correct position when you accept delivery of the motor.

I am assuming you are attempting to connect the rear axle to the engine. You will have to pull the 4th main back far enough to see where the hole is unless there is a groove in the babbit and that you should be able to feel if is extends the length of the 4th main.

[speedytinc]

I am hoping part of my problem may come from the frame being on jack stands and the rear hanging and not sitting on the wheels on the ground.

EZ enough to confirm this hypothesis. Jack both sides of the rear end up & try the ball cap fit again.

[skyhunter]

Tis my next move.

The ball cap does go in. It has a Scat crank.

Did not think that the end hanging by the spring would be a possible contributor till I looked at the whole picture which was why I mentioned it.

I just thought maybe the holes of the coupling ring were just a bit off. Like when a brake line is pulling just wee off side enough to cause that damn brake line fitting to never start threading in.

One just never knows what they don't know till they ask.

I think I will first confirm the coupling ring hole at 12 o clock for sure. Then maybe take the rear out and test fit the bolts through the coupling ring. Might be best to clock the coupling ring with the U-joint and shaft out.

Then fix the missing 2 brake shoe tabs on the backing plate so I can get the rear on with the wheels attached.

[skyhunter]

Now I am really losing my shit.

So I took the back end out. Pulled the ball cap to see if that hole in it is still at the 12 o'clock. It is not, because it has a bearing in it now.

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With it out I tried running the bottom bolts in and they did need a threads cleaned up but the bolts go in fine.

It is when the ball cap is re-installed that the problem starts. I measured and all the holes are equidistant, however when I just tried to put one bottom bolt on I had to give the cap some help with a punch in another hole. But that one bottom bolt is all that will go in, the rest are off just enough that the lord almighty could not start the other bolt. Even the top two won't slide in without side pressure from the punch but once it's released it angles the bolt and pushes it.

Someway the outer flange for lack of actually knowing what it is called is out of whack. Maybe the whole thing or part of it is no longer flat, I just don't know. Now imagine mate all 3, the trans, the ball cap and the coupling ring as well.

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[speedytinc]

Could it be that the ball bearing was not machined to be properly centered & square?
Have you checked it with the DS mount flange for bolt pattern line up ?
You can try installing, noting contact spots. Rotate 180 degrees & check. Off the same side indicates a pan misalignment.
If the contact point changes, it your 4th main.

Deviating from correct original parts adds another layer of issues.
There is the unknown issue of the pan & HH alignment being correct.
The 4th main should slide in centered in all directions when vertical. Expect yours to be centered L & R, but be tight on the bottom due to the drooping trans assembly.

I am not a fan of ball bearing 4th mains.
Its hard enough to get one machined & centered with the proper clearances from a supplier.
I gave up & machine my own from raw babbit pours.

[skyhunter]

I can't even get to the point where I can mount the DS (drive shaft I assume) mount. The problem is the 4th main/ball cap will not allow more than one bottom bolt to thread in to the transmission.

It has to be off center then.

[speedytinc]

Can you get the DS flange back far enough to check the bolt holes independent of the transmission to the 4th main?
The idea is to confirm if its the 4th main off or the transmission.
If the DS bolt pattern dont align, maybe a little filing of the 4th main is in order? Confirm the issue before modifying.

[Norman Kling]

The two holes behind the hogshead are equally spaced and the two under the crankcase are equally space, so that leaves space between the hogs head and crankcase to be greater or less than it should be. I like to fit the 4th m ain while the engine is on a stand with the nose down. If everything is right the 4th main can be slid up and down on the tail shaft. If everything is correct then when you bolt everything up it will fit correctly. If the crankcase sags or is vent from side to side, you will have problems and eventually break the crankshaft. Even a skat crank will break if it is out of line because it flexes the crankshaft with every revolution. and just like bending back and forth a piece of wire, it will eventually break.
Norm

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

It's beginning to appear as if your ball bearing 4th main needs to go back to the maker for a replacement, or at least an inspection.

[Oldav8tor]

You also ought to share your problem with the "reputable engine rebuilder." He may have some responsibility here.

[skyhunter]

So I just checked, the ball cap and the coupling ring line up perfectly and they look like they both seem have the same gap all around each hole.

Now that I have checked, thanks to ya'll I got an idea what it is not, I will reach out to the guys and see what they think.

For other reasons I think the issue is probably the pan.

[NoelChico]

Dan, I am a strong proponent of the 2-piece transmission shaft. Are you going to do another production run?

[Allan]

When I built my 1915 speedster It had the correct pan with the flat pan rail without the turned down edge to strengthen it. The build included straightening the pan on a jig. The pan was assembled to the block, with the motor vertical and the fourth main fitted, all in perfect alignment.
The I fitted the alloy hogshead, resulting in my perfectly fitting fourth main now being pulled up almost 1/16" out of line. My son was ready to pull it off again and check the pan again, but I put a hold on it. I could not see what I would do differently, and there seemed no point in going over the same things all over again and expecting different results.
Next day, after some cogitation, I unpacked my porta power. With a hardwood block between the second and third rod dips on the pan, and a heavy webbing strap around the pan snout and trans cover at the back, the porta power was pumped up to see what happened.With just a gentle push it was easy as pie to pull the back of the pan down into line so that the fourth main could be reinstalled as it should fit. With the power off, it resumed the non fitting state, but not as severely. Two more gentle pump cycles and it held up beautifully.
Having had this success, I can see no reason why the same process could not be done in the car, perhaps over a pit to give room for the porta power. It will correct alignment up/down, but not laterally. I can't see that you have much to lose, and a lot of time and labour to gain if it works for you too.

Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.

[TXGOAT2]

Did the engine rebuilder install the pan, or was the engine installed into the pan by the customer? If the latter, could the pan need straightening?