Found cut in pan, from inside out... Pull hogshead AND pan?

[lewcombs@gmail.com]

I am new at this. I will get names of stuff wrong. Please be patient and try to interpret.

I was planning to change all fluids, greases, etc. in my 1923 touring car.
First thing was oil change, and I immediately saw the new oil spilling out.
Found a 1" long vertical cut in the outmost edge of the pan where it surrounds the flywheel.. drivers side, at height approx between the two oil petcocks on the other side, or about maybe 8-oclock on the cover.
Looked like someone stuck a 1" knife out through the metal... 1/16" wide, flap of steel bent outwards along the cut. Very neat.

My limited research says maybe part of a magnet, or a screw, something spinning fast, but working loose. I did not hear any event.
Apparently I must remove the pan and try to find the offending item, and its source, fix the problem, braze the slice closed, check for other possible things coming loose, reinstall everything. One AI recommendation was to remove the hogshead and inspect the magnets on the flywheel... but if I am ultimately going to remove the pan anyway, is anything gained by also removing the hogshead?
I want to do it right, but don't want it to be a forever task.

I thought one could find a youtube video on everything... but have not found any showing removal of the oil pan nor of inspecting flywheels, magnets, and whatever else is in there moving fast.

Would welcome any advice.

[DHort]

If you remove the pan you will also have to remove the hogshead. No way around it. Might want to remove the inspection cover first and try to see something that way. Remove the oil drain and stick your little finger up there to see if you feel anything. Could also remove the inspection cover on the pan to see if anything is in the pan. That will probably come off too, when you remove the pan. Put the cover screws in a baggy or tray so you know where they go. Put hogshead bolts in a baggy or tray as well. Some might be a different length.

Maybe you will find something and maybe not. Best of luck.

p.s. removing the hogshead first makes the engine a lot lighter if you have to pull it.

[Mike Silbert]

You have a lot of work coming your way.
Whatever poked the hole in the pan needs to be removed.
My guess it is a magnet plate because a brass screw head broke off.

If you can get help it will make the job easier and safer.
Removing the pan is normally done after removing the engine/transmission and putting it on a stand.
When removing the engine/transmission assembly the steering column, headlights, firewall, hood, and radiator will all be in the way.
Some things can be worked around and others have to be removed.
Everyone has their favorite removal method plus the way the cars were built over the years changed so there is no universal "right way"
The starter and magneto post must be removed so the top of the transmission can be removed without damaging parts.
Take your time and keep track of the fasteners and where they go. Its a simple car with a lot of fasteners that look similar.

While it is open, look and see what else might need adjustment or repair to avoid doing it again in 6 months.
When it is being reassembled I recommend the transmission filter screen with a magnet.
If you don't have a copy these service books help things a lot
https://www.modeltford.com/item/T1.aspx
https://www.modeltford.com/item/RM3.aspx
https://www.modeltford.com/item/RM5.aspx

If you get stuck lots of us can give advise.
Mike

[DanTreace]

Would agree likely a magnet keeper made of steel with thin sharp edge slipped away and tore that narrow gash. Esp. since bent edge of pan was forced outward.

More simple and direct way, can't really do short cuts is to remove the Ford powerplant as the engine was named in the day. The pan is the foundation, and all of the short block and trans cover have to be removed to fix the pan.


One man job with the tools, a cherry picker, lift eyes, and follow instructions in Ford Service Manual. Remove all wires and attachments (exhaust, fuel line, or manifolds, plugs, wiring ) to the engine, unbolt steering column bracket at frame and dash, push up out of the way. Detach universal , remove engine to frame bolts (pair each side), detach wishbone at base of pan, remove front spring / pan cap which releases front of motor.

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[George House]

Yeah, remove the hogshead first. Not only will it make the engine removal lighter, it’ll make it easier because the 3 pedals won’t be hanging up on the firewall. But before you remove it, you’ll have to remove the starter. And before you remove the starter, you’ve gotta REMOVE THE BENDIX COVER AND BENDIX UNIT…. Keep us posted on your progress.

[TXGOAT2]

The oil pan on the T is also the engine mounts, half the transmission case, frame cross member, and front and rear axle attachment point. You cannot "drop the pan" as with most other vehicles.



It might be possible to remove the hogshead and fish out whatever loose part or parts that damaged the pan, and determine if the offending object (s) can be replaced without further disassembly. A number of people have managed to retrieve small parts, or fragments of parts, that have found their way into the bottom of the pan, and posted information on how they did it by using rags, magnets, chewing gum, compressed air, or whatever. It would be important to account for ALL loose items, and do a proper job of replacing them and assessing any additional damage that may have occurred. IF you can account for ALL loose items, and repair any possible internal damage or missing items without further disassembly, it should be possible to solder the cut in the pan without pulling the engine.

[speedytinc]

IMHO, I would not bother taking the HH off first.
Something flung. Surprising you didnt hear the BANG. Even if its a lone magnet keeper, the transmission has to be removed for access around the field coil. Not to mention the carnage to the field coil & a careful check of ALL the other magnet keepers & magnets.
Yes, the motor is lighter, but, you would certainly reassemble the motor completely on your engine stand & re-install with the HH properly fitted with the 4th main & sealed in place. The power plant goes back in as a COMPLETE unit.
See the picture Dan T provided.

[TXGOAT2]

Whatever cut the pan probably came loose and got wedged between the pan and the moving flywheel assembly. It may have even been ejected. Did the car leak a lot of oil when last driven? If not, the event must have occurred at shut down.
Does the starter still operate normally? Was there anything unusual in the drained oil?

[lewcombs@gmail.com]

Thank you all for very helpful, and fast, responses.

TXGOAT2 asked about anything in the old oil... and the bad thing is I drained it, disposed of it a day later when I put in new oil, and THEN discovered my leak.
Clearly I have now bit off a major task.
I guess I am about to learn a lot about this toy that I never intended to learn!
And first step is now I need to clear a bigger work area in my garage than the simple area where I was keeping it parked.

I will update here as I progress, and/or hit snags.

Again, thank you all.

Lew

[TXGOAT2]

If that cut in the pan developed while the engine was running, there should have been a MASSIVE oil leak continuing for as long as the engine ran, or until all the oil was forced out the cut in the pan. If there was no massive oil leak, the problem must have occurred at the moment the engine was last shut down. If that's the case, damage may be minimal, and you may be able to recover the loose item or items and correct the initial problem without any major tear down. The loose item may even be stuck to one of the magnets. How well did the car perform before the problem was discovered?

[Steve Jelf]

Yes, you must remove the engine/transmission as a unit. Don't waste your time on mental gymnastics trying to figure some other way. If you're able to see what that takes simply by observation, go ahead. If you need directions, follow the shop manual. With the engine attached to a stand and the nose aimed down, you'll be able to examine the works and find the trouble. You won't do all this in an hour or two. There are a lot of steps. Don't be intimidated. Many thousands of people have done this job. It ain't rocket surgery.

[TXGOAT2]

I'd want to determine that pulling the engine was absolutely necessary, especially if I lacked a well equipped shop.

[Allan]

There is a serous problem, which will require serious work. Diagnosis/speculation of the cause prior to the needed work will not negate the need for that work.

Allan from down under.

[John kuehn]

Remove the transmission cover and then slowly turn the engine. You will soon see what if anything came loose on the flywheel. Look closely as you turn it. Then you can see what your up against if it did come off the flywheel and magneto and parts.
You might have to remove the cover anyway no matter what you find.

[lewcombs@gmail.com]

Again thanks for more info.

It was actually running pretty well. I never heard anything and never saw any oil (on paved drive, or in garage.) I was running around the yard, no issues. I began my project to replace all fluids, and there it was! Point of interest, after it finished leaking out of the cut, I opened the lower petcock on opposite site, oil came out, ao it was still holding a couple of quarts.
At the time I was wondering whether I had been running on low oil, and if so, how low had it been. Then I realized it was not a recent puncture from outside but the slice I described at an unkown time.
Since oil is washing around in there, not under pressure as I understand it, could it have been that way for a while?
I only drive it rarely when grandkids are here so it is not getting road miles. This was the time to play a little, and then do the fluids and greases.

Question: someone said to remove transmission cover and look at magnets. I cannot see anything but a few gears with only the cover off. It seems I must pull the hogshead to see the flywheel.

AND... it seems that I have to remove a lot to get to where I can solder or braze from the inside anyway. (Maybe that can be done from outside if I find and fix whatever flew loose?)

Am I missing something?

[speedytinc]

Whatever flew off (presumably a magnet keeper) cant be re-installed without removing the flywheel. That means a motor pull.
Sure, remove the HH, maybe its an old wound you bought it that way? Maybe you get lucky.

[Scott_Conger]

Lewis

welcome to the Forum and I am sad for you that it was something like this that brought you here.

What happened to your car is not rare or unheard of...many of us have experienced it and even more have had to help someone who had it happen, so you're not dealing with something mysterious.

Now, when the damage happened, it was loud, violent, and frightening. If you did not experience that, then I suspect that it happened to the prior owner and they may have pulled out the broken parts and patched the external wound. That oil is not just languishing in there lapping at the shore like a quiet pond when the car is running...that oil is being flung with force and the engine will expel every bit of oil in a matter of a couple minutes and not a second longer. Once parked, the underside of the car will be soaked, the ground will be soaked, and oil will drip from every lower extremity the car.

You have seemingly NOT experienced loud banging, jerkiness in power, or severe oil loss while operating the car. I'm highly suspicious that all this drama preceded your ownership and the previous owner applied some sort of goop to plug the hole from the outside and that patch failed around the time you did your maintenance.

Despite hopeful advice to the contrary, this gash is neither solderable nor brazeable insitu.

Due to the way FORD made the pan, only the tiniest bit of material can find its way to the drain hole - while it looks big, internally, it is covered over with a riveted plate with a slot in it and about the only thing that can get through is the head of the screw that broke off. The magnet keeper that pierced your pan will never show up in the drain. Since it is not banging around in there, it most likely was fished out by the last guy. If that is the case, then you're still left with a missing magnet keeper, a broken off screw stub, and an unsecured magnet or magnets which may well be cracked, any one of which will sooner or later bring about more mayhem. It will be most prudent to pull the hog's head and look to see if there are missing/damaged parts, or if for some reason, someone went to the trouble to remove the engine, remove the pan, remove the transmission, rebuild the magnets, put it all together and then fail to repair the pan properly.

If this were my car, then at a minimum, the engine needs to come out, the pan removed, metal dollied back into form and then brazed. Likely, the transmission will need to come off and all remaining brass screws replaced and magnets tested for cracks. Additionally, it is a certainty that the original event either damaged or destroyed the mag ring and even if it is still functional, since things are apart, the 100 + y/o windings should be restored/replaced since it is an easy job once the engine is out and transmission is off.

This is a terrible yet not uncommon way to really get to know your car and since it sounds like it is a family-fun thing, I'm sorry you're having to go through this.

[TFan]

Question, when you were running the car were you running on mag or on battery? I would think that if you were on mag whatever caused the hole would have also made it improbable to run on mag. So I would think that pulling the hogshead would be the prudent thing so you can see what's going on. Also pic's might help with diagnosis. Jim

[TXGOAT2]

If the interference occurred at the last shut-down, which is quite possible, little or no drama would have been observed, and little or no oil would have been ejected. If goop was applied at some previous time, some residue ought to remain. As Scott pointed out, if the engine ran, even briefly, with the pan punctured at that location, oil would have been forced out through the cut at a high rate by the rotating flywheel assembly.

[Mike Silbert]

Lewis,

I agree with what Scott says.
I have seen plenty of broken brass screws before.
The only way to be sure of what is going on, all loose parts have been removed, and make a quality repair is to open it up and take a look.
Most all of us have had a surprise engine removal before, it happens with stuff this old.

If you want a small look and an idea of what is going on, pull the starter and get a small window.
Remember to pull the bendix off before removing the starter motor to avoid more damage.
The starter has to come off anyway to remove the transmission cover.

Mike

[Rich P. Bingham]

I'd want to determine that pulling the engine was absolutely necessary, especially if I lacked a well equipped shop.

Absolutely ! Everyone dreads pulling an engine, but if you have a T and keep it any length of time, it’s not “IF” you’ll have to, but “WHEN”. (For a feeling of accomplishment it can’t be beat ! )

The OP didn’t post a pic of the damage. That would be helpful to us arm-chair kibitzers.

[TXGOAT2]

Pulling the engine is not too difficult, if the parts are clean and the proper procedure is followed. However, taking the engine and transmission apart is best done with a proper stand to mount it on, and reassembly has several critical steps. I'd want to avoid that if possible. Some things don't seem to add up to me, particularly the lack of noises and lack of a MASSIVE oil leak.

[TXGOAT2]

Damage was described as fresh, a cut from inside about 1" X 1/16" with the sides pushed out slightly. Even at idle speed, that ought to have spewed oil at a high rate, unless whatever made it was lodged in it.

[lewcombs@gmail.com]

Much to read. Again thank you.

Some history and clarification, my 94 yr old wheel chair uncle owned this for 77 years, equipped it with hand controls (!) and gave it to me about 6 years ago.
A previous mechanic shop couldn't get it running, returned the car to him, he was too old and frail to examine stuff, and the shop "had no recollection of it" when I discovered the absence of gas tank.
I replaced tank, radiator, some coils, a wiring block, battery, and got it running.
I have driven it about twice a year when grandkids are here. I don't trust it or me yet to be on real roads.. a few excursions into my neighborhood streets.
So from all you have told me, the event had to happen on my watch and in my yard or driveway, and probably as I parked it.

When I ended my last ride it had stalled off, so I tried several times to restart (it had been starting on about 2 revolutions) and it just sputtered. It was out of gas. So we pushed it by hand into the garage, and then planned to do the fluid exchanges.
No loud bang. No mess of oil on pavement or garage floor. Big puddle when I added new oil. A very shiny cut when I crawled under to examine the oil leak. All seems to point to what one responder said that it maybe happened immediately before parking it.

So, I think I did it, don't know how, may never deduce when, but now have to become the mechanic I am not, or find T enthusiasts near me who might want to turn some wrenches.
(AND clear some space in my garage and obtain some devices I don't yet have to pull it and to hang it, etc.)

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and encouragements.

Lew

[Mike Silbert]

Lew,

Check into MTFCI and MTFCA chapters near you
https://www.mtfca.com/chapters/#va
https://modelt.org/chapter-directory

I know there are several experienced Model T people in the Richmond area but do not know how to contact them.
Joining a local chapter is always a good idea.

Mike

[Dan Hatch]

You need to hook with the guys around Luray. Looks to be close to you. They can get you the help you need. The swap meet there is one of the best in the country.
Also a picture of the damage would help.

[TXGOAT2]

The damage may be from an object dropped into the transmission at some time in the past. Or it could be a part or fragment of a part that came loose when the car was running. Such a part, or fragment of a part, may have been trapped by centrifugal force or sludge as the car was running, but came loose and did the damage as the engine was shut down and slowed to a stop. The engine would not have had to be under power or revolving fast for the damage described to have occurred.

Something at least a little out of the ordinary happened, or oil would have been sprayed out in a very obvious way with the engine running. Odd things happen with automobiles. Transmissions have been damaged by tooth fragments or other debris that settled to the bottom of the case and remained there for some period of time, perhaps months or more, then, when the vehicle was started on a cold morning, the thickened gear oil picked up the loose item and carried it into the gears, causing a sudden and dramatic failure. Something similar can happen with engines. The unique design of the Model T power unit has very little clearance around the sides and upper part of the flywheel housing and the flywheel assembly, and the hurricane of oil and oil froth around the moving flywheel can pick up small items from the bottom of the sump and cause them to wedge in the space between the moving flywheel assembly and the pan. This can occur as soon as the loose item detaches, or it may occur at some later time.

....."You need to hook with the guys around Luray. Looks to be close to you. They can get you the help you need. The swap meet there is one of the best in the country.
Also a picture of the damage would help.........."

Amen to that.

[Mike Silbert]

Parts can sometimes hang around inside for years before they become evident.
A local club member bought a good running car from another local member and drove it for about 5 years until going around a turn and BANG, slide to a stop and silence.
It was completely locked up and had to be drug on a trailer to get it home.
When it was torn down there was a 9/16" SnapOn socket jammed between the magnets and ring coil with a bad case of destruction.

The current owner never owned a SnapOn socket, or at least knew he owned one.
The previous owner only owned SnapOn tools.

More than a year before the car changed hands the previous owner had someone help him adjust the rod bearings.
So 6 or more years before the big event the helper must have left the socket in the engine.
No one can figure out where that socket was hiding for such a long time when the car was driven and toured for thousands of miles.
The beat up socket is now screwed to the garage wall in memory of all the damage.

Sometimes these things just happen.
This is why I recommend the transmission filter screen with magnet for everyone, just in case.

Get some help from some local guys, they are out there.
Mike