Hayes vs Ford rim/felloe confusion

[cslandry]

I’ve decided it’s time to rebuild the wheels on my speedster. They are in decent shape, but the spokes have been shimmed and re-shimmed several times, and since I drive it a couple thousand miles a year, it seems like the right thing to do. I didn’t build it. The guy who did had passed away and I acquired it from the estate 10+ years ago. I didn’t realize until recently how mis-matched the wheels are. There are three types of felloes and three (or more) types of rims. I don’t think they are particularly well matched. I’m surprised I haven’t had any issues.

Since I’m starting over, I decided to come up with a matching set. I believe I’ve done that, but I am still a bit confused. The rims I have are clearly Hayes, with the welded-on lugs. The lugs are stamped Hayes. Hayes 2845B as in the picture below.

Picture1.jpg (9.25 KiB) Viewed 286 times

(Interestingly, I also have some rims that are identical in profile, but have more rounded lugs and are not stamped with a manufacturer.)

Continued . . .

[cslandry]

My confusion has to do with the felloes. I have one set with a straight outer rim, notches cut for the lugs, and a 20-3/4” inner diameter. According to the picture above and the information in the vendor catalogs, these would seem to be “Ford” felloes.

The other set I have has a rolled inner rim, with rolled depressions for the lugs, and a 20-13/16” inner diameter. These would seem to be “Hayes” felloes.

The confusion is that my Hayes rims fit nicely onto the “Ford” felloes, but really don’t fit on the “Hayes” felloes. It’s not just about the lugs – the diameter just doesn’t seem to quite match.

I’m pretty settled on using the Hayes rims with the “Ford” felloes and the normal length spokes but, before I order $500+in spokes, I want to make sure I’m doing the right thing. I would have thought that Hayes would match Hayes, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here.

I’d really appreciate any thoughts on this confusion.

[Allan]

In my experiencewith Hayes 23" wire wheels the felloes all have the depessions in the rolled in outer edge of the felloe. When bolted up, the lug should stand off the outer surface of the felloe. The rims are designed to be wedged onto the inner land on the felloe before the lug can make contact. If this is not happening for you it indicates to me that the rim and or the felloe are worn, allowing the rim to go furtger onto the felloe. I have seen Hayes branded lugs with straight sides and tapered sides.

Our Canadian sourced cars came with Kelsey wheels. The loose lug types and later fixed lug rims mount differently. Loose lug rims wedge on to the outer adge of the felloe. The fixed lug rims wedge onto a wider inner land, with the lug standing off the outer felloe surface. To fit Hayes rims to these demands that the depression be made to accept the foot on the Hayes lug.
Allan from down under..

[Scott_Conger]

Chris

of 4 cars I own, two are demountable: of those two, both have Hayes rims while one car has Hayes fellos and one has FORD fellos. They both fit just fine...and they should because they are intended to be compatible with each other. As Allan stated, something is worn or otherwise wonky if your Hayes/Hayes combo doesn't seem kosher.

If anything above is helpful or useful to you, then I'm glad.

good luck and Kudos to you for doing the research, checking fitment, and asking questions. Now is the time to satisfy yourself that you're headed in the right direction before investing a lot of $$ and time in the project. If only everyone would do such due diligence!

[Allan]

Chris, your fit problem may not be a problem at all. The felloes with the straight up edges and the cut-outs for the Hayes rim lugs are just like the 21" Kelsey felloes on our Canadian sourced cars. The second felloe photo shows the depression for the Hayes lug foot, just like that on my Hayes wire wheels. The fit is as follows. Both of those felloes have a wider inner land onto which the rims are wedged by the four rim bolts. with rims and felloes in good condition, you should be able to insert a credit card between the rim and the outer edge of the felloe, with the lug standing off the outer front face of the felloe. The rim should only be tight on the back [inner] land on the felloe.
The reverse is true of the early 20's T's with loose lug rims. The felloes on these had two narrow lands. When correctly fitted, the rims wedged on the outer land on the felloe, and the credit card can be inserted between the rim and the narrow inner land on the felloe. It is not uncommon for rim/felloe combinations to be worn, possibly due to looseness in operation, this wear allowing engagement of sorts on both edges of the felloe. This may be what leads to the misbelief the the rims should bind on both edges of the felloe.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

[Mike Silbert]

Due to Ford buying wheels from multiple sources just to keep up with production requirements and some are interchangeable and some not this has been an issue since day one.
Then add the aftermarket making parts for owners adding to the mix.
And the reproduction rims have been made in certain styles that may or may not look like any of the originals.

Ford issued service bulletins to try to help clear up the conclusion so that is where I start.
In the attic of the garage there is over 12 feet of demountable rims / felloes stacked like books on the rack and I still struggle to get matched sets.

Here are some links to help / (hurt?) the confusion.
https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/8 ... 1242971377
https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/1 ... 35230.html
https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/5 ... 1434123252
https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/1 ... 38915.html

Look at what you have and what Ford says was supposed to fit together.
Maybe you can figure it out.

Hopefully this helps
Mike

[cslandry]

Thanks, everybody, for the comments and references. Sure glad to see I'm not the only one who's confused! I'm going with the Hayes (square lug) rims and the Ford felloes. I think the rims would bolt on to the Hayes felloes I have, but there's a subtle difference in the flange shape and they just fit better on the Ford felloes (Straight side flange with cut out relief for the lugs).

The car currently has a random mix. I didn't realize how mixed up it was until I started looking into this. Fixed lugs, loose lugs, loose lugs with captured nuts, who knows what felloes. I've driven it well over 10,000 miles like that with no real issues, but I'll be glad to get a consistent set. It's a bitsa speedster so I'm not too concerned if what is on there is correct for any particular year.

Chris