***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

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VowellArt
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***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by VowellArt » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:54 am

1920-25-26-27FuelTankAssembly.jpg
I'm not sure if people still do this or not, but back when I was first getting into the Model T (in the late 70's), vendors sold a cork band liner for the under the seat tanks...I bought mine from Snyder's. The purpose of it (at least so I was told) was to keep the mounting bands off the tank and to quiet any possible squeaks from the tank and the band flexing as the car went over rough terrain. Also it was supposed to prevent any chaffing by the bands against the tank and prevent rust as well. Now I can't say for sure if any of these are correct or not...but my car is one of the quietest smoothest running Model T's on the road and there isn't any abnormal (whatever that might be) squeaks coming from her anywhere in fact if one presents itself it quickly get silenced (by me with a bit of something either cork or webbing), but occasionally there is a little metal noise like when you hit a bump rather hard, but other than that, she's a real pleasure to drive.
In Lang's catalog, these bands seem to come with what I termed the "Bridge Gap Band", but in their picture it is on the top of the band and not the bottom bridging the gap between the band ends... the cork strip is a cushion between the tank and band an is not glued to either the tank or the band. I also included on this drawing the sediment bulb in tank filter...to my mind the best damn filter there is, better even than those inline filters that get clogged up every so often (besides, under the seat tanks don't have the flow pressure to make one of those work well anyway), because this one never does get clogged.

Anyhoo, I'd like to know if anybody uses these cork strips still or not, I don't see them in any of the catalogs and they're certainly not mentioned in the Ford catalog and are probably not really part of the gas tank assembly at all...for a source I used my tank and I think they're a good idea, because I haven't had any problems with my tank.

I also don't understand the problem with a copper fuel line either in favor of a steel one, to me steel rusts and copper does not. I was told that copper crystallizes over time and may break...ok, how much time? Mine has had a copper fuel line for over 30 years and it hasn't crystallized yet. Does the steel fuel line have a bigger I.D.? Something that might make it more advantageous than my 1/4" Copper line? I need to know more about that steel one before I even consider switching the copper one out, so if you've got any answers about the differences I'd like to hear them.
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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by VowellArt » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:58 am

Made a boo-boo, Revision 1-A
1920-25-26-27FuelTankAssembly.jpg
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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by Allan » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:03 am

Martin, on our Canadian sourced cars, the carriage bolts used to fix the bands are drilled to take a slit pin, even though the nut is a plain hex nut. Are US made cars different?

Allan from down under.

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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by Matt in California » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:38 am

Martynn,
Work hardening is a real thing. Vibrations from the engine can make copper very brittle over time. What happens the copper will start annealed, but the vibrations over time make it very hard and brittle. Perhaps your smooth running car makes it last longer.

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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by Sarikatime » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:02 pm

I just went through the gastank, sealed it, new sediment bowl and petcock and a new copper line to the carburator. I was not aware of the cork or any other barrier under the tank straps but thought it was a good idea to put something there and after painting everything I put a layer of duct tape. I had copper gas lines on my previous model t’s before and never had issues of hardening or clogging. But, what do I know. Frank


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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:58 pm

Vibration will not work harden Copper. Repeated stress will work harden copper. Vibration does not have to equal stress.

If you use the original elbow and felt or neoprene packing that is supposed to be used, and use support clip(s) as originally installed, stress and risk of breakage will be all but non-existant.
Fuel line clamps.jpg
I am all but certain that original lines were tinned brass, as were acetylene lines. Brass is not exactly known for its ductility, yet survived just fine with the original style fittings.

If you wish to "improve" the design and have jammed the copper tube into a modern elbow and used a cheap hardware store compression ferrule on it, and then crank it down every season to stop that annoying leak, it will indeed work harden and break off right at the ferrule...all this happens well after years of squeezing the ID down so far that the car starves for fuel.

John Ragan spent a good number of words on this subject here, John F. Regan on Monday, June 18, 2018 - 10:43 am: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/82 ... 1529336359
Last edited by Scott_Conger on Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by VowellArt » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:00 pm

Allan, My carriage bolts have no hole in them for a cotter pin at all, can't say this is true for all the other domestic's though, because Ford was cotter pin happy on this cars, somebody may have changed out the bolt for some reason at some point...what I do know is that there is enough tension on that nut from the band to jam its threads, so I guess it was never needed...although it does sound like a good idea. Maybe somebody else can say if they're there or not, as for me I don't know, because they weren't on my car.
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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:06 pm

Carriage bolts on all my cars' fuel tank straps are drilled for a cotter pin
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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by VowellArt » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:31 pm

Scott, that makes sense that they're tinned brass, because as I said before, steel rusts and just because you're running fuel through it doesn't mean it wont rust either, run out of gas, or let the car set a bit and that pipe gets dry, condensation will form and that leads to rust. On my car, I use the felt packing, because it grabs the line securely enough and yet doesn't crush the line end like a ferrule will. The tubing fits down into both the petcock and the elbow so where the felt is holding the line is about 3/4's of an inch from the end, which I think is plenty of support for the line. The line clips are on the frame, they're snug, not tight, they hold the line not crush it to the frame. So far I've seen nothing that even remotely indicates there is a problem with my copper fuel line....but if there ever is, I'll consider the new one if it indeed tinned brass and not steel...I'll never use steel anywhere these is any possibility of condensation forming and the fuel lines is one of those areas where this is possible especially where fuel (and for exactly the reasons of our new fuels, which are more alcohol than gas, which makes it even more possible) is concerned.
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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by DHort » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:23 pm

I would suggest that if you are going to use copper fuel line that you do not use the same copper line that you use for your refrigerator. You need the thicker walled copper line and felt or neoprene packing. John Regan appears to agree.


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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:32 pm

David

you are absolutely right!!
that is a point I failed to make, and one that stymied my job of replacing my dad's fuel line during a very short trip to TN. There seemed to be NO place in his town that had the proper wall thickness of pipe. The thickness of pipe available at Lowe's, etc., was frighteningly thin for this purpose.

thank you for following up with that very important point.
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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by VowellArt » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:51 pm

Ok, I added those Cotter Pins and the frame clip, even though I only show one, it should be understood that there are actually two of them, they hold the fuel line in two place.
1920-25-26-27FuelTankAssembly-1-B.jpg
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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:29 pm

Martyn

I think the "two" refers to the double clip that makes up the single assembly. I believe your drawing is complete as-is.

And one final point and I'll quit. The last job I did used a new packing nut. The hole was slightly too small (not quite 1/4") and had to be opened up (I used 17/64 to allow a very little bit of strain relief/clearance.
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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by Allan » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:53 pm

Re the use of brass ferrules on copper fuel lines. These demand that both fittings used to mate to the ferrule are machined to seal against the ferrule. On a T the screw on packnut is so machined, but the outlet on the sediment bulb and the elbow on the carburetor are just threaded castings, with no machining to match the ferrule. Consequently, the ferrule will never seat properly, without the need for much greater tension on the packnut than should ever be needed, just to attempt to make the brass ferrule conform. This often means the ferrule is pinched so tight that the copper line is severely deformed.

Hope this helps. Allan from down under.

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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by VowellArt » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:02 pm

Allan, when we (my dad and I) had first put the car back together my dad didn't feel that the felt seal was such a good idea (as most engineers think when encountering old technology, in fact he "new and improved" everything on my car waaaay before it was fashionable to do so...which come to think about it is probably why the car runs so damned smooth too). We went off down to the local hardware store and bought a couple of fitting kits that came with the ferrule and it's packing nut. I used those on my car for nearly 20 years and never had a problem with them, they never leaked and you never had to re-tighten them as somebody said you had to go round and do, but then my car doesn't try and shake itself apart either. And if you did have to remove the fuel line for some reason (and I did once or twice for various reasons that escape me now but seemed like good ideas at the time), all you did was bolt it back up like you would any other part, and as far as I could tell it never squeezed down on the fuel line anymore than it had when it was first installed. But since I was going for the "real Model T experience" I cut off those ferrules, removed their fittings and reinstalled my fuel line using felt to seal the line, and it also doesn't leak either...what I do know is, that the copper line is just as strong an malleable as when it was first installed, because I had to do some re-bending after cutting those ferrules off and turned my sediment bulb 1/4 turn tighter (towards the passengers side) to make it fit correctly to the frame...and now some 30 years later, it is still there doing what we installed it do and it doesn't leak, nor are there any signs of this crystallizing folks claim happens to copper either. :)
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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by Allan » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:40 am

Martin, your Dad had the right idea. If using the ferules, you do need the fitting kit, which means suitable receivers for the packnut, the ferule and the packnut. These will stand repeated refitting with no detriment. However, the original outlet on the sediment bulb and the elbow in the carburetor are not suitable receivers for the packnut, not being machined for the purpose.

On the vacuum tank on my Holden bodied T, the priming plug is threaded directly into the pot metal top. Repeated fitting of the plug will compromise the top eventually, so I screwed a brass fitting into the hole and then the plug is fitted into the brass fitting rather than the pot metal top. The various pipes are set up the same way. A brass fitting takes the tube and ferule and a second brass fitting clamps the pipe and ferule into place.

I just wish there was some standardisation between the numerous application, thread sizes,flares/ferules etc.

Allan from down under.

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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by DanTreace » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:35 am

Martyn


Nice exploded drawing as always.

But one important change in the parts position. That 'bridge' plate is placed on the Left bracket strap pn/2915B for the oval tank. This part is two pieces, the strap and the 'bridge' plate.


100_8754 (640x480).jpg

The reason the bracket is engineered for the left side is that bracket strap is held with only one bolt to the frame. The T's three-point suspension allows for frame flex. The gas tank mounts are also three-point, 2 bolts on the right side and 1 bolt on the left.

The u-channel 'bridge' piece placed on the left bracket strap, that is held with just one bolt, and gives full support to the underside of that 10 gal. tank, prevents twist and stress on the tank.
100_8755 (640x480).jpg
The bolts to the hold the tank straps have cotter pins as noted.

As for copper vs steel gas lines, the times I've seen leaks is when copper tubing is used with a brass compression type ferrule in the standard Ford Packing nut against the Ford carb elbow. The angles aren't correct for compression fittings, were made for felt, and over time these rigid ferrules will crack the copper line at the carb.
IMG_0624.jpg
Original gas tank with straps in correct places on the left and right. Note these late tanks were sometimes marked on the assembly line to indicate what body the chassis was about to receive ;)
IMG_0930 (736x800).jpg
IMG_0931 (800x600).jpg
Last edited by DanTreace on Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by BHarper » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:43 am

Hello Martin et al,

Ford DID use cotter pins, split pins on the strap carriage bolts and plain hex nuts. I apologise for the poor picture quality. I always appreciate all of the time and effort which you put into your drawings. Thank you, Bill

Gas Tank Strap Hardware 001.jpg
Gas Tank Strap Hardware 002 .jpg
Gas Tank Strap Hardware 003 .jpg


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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by rickg » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:26 pm

Use type "L" copper it is a heavier wall it is also called refrigeration copper and use a flare fitting instead of a compression ferrule it wont crack. Think about your air conditioner or refrigerator running for years with high pressure up to 600 psi and add the compressor vibration and pulsing and the copper lines hold up forever, Ford used a seamed brass line but with felt compression fittings and they held up well, don't knock copper it is tough.

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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by Allan » Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:35 am

Dan, you raise an interesting point. On our Canadian sourced cars for our RHD model Ts, the frame rails an later frames are punched for the tank to be mounted either way. There are 3 holes each side, so the brackets can be swapped to either side. The tanks are usually fitted with the filler to the left, so filling is done through the passenger's door, but it too can be mounted either way.

Of interest is the fact that the frame rails are also punched to allow the battery carrier to be mounted either way, three holes each side. Even on RHD cars it is not possible to mount it with the battery on the right hand side because of the exhaust pipe. It has been suggested that the holes were punched in the rails to suit both left and right hand drive cars while the material was flat, and it was bent into its U shape afterwards.

The holes for the lower steering bracket are also in both frame rails.

Allan from down under.

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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by VowellArt » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:46 pm

Sorry for the delay, had a spot of fire out here in Commiefornia, I live in Sylmar and the freaking power keeps going on and off for some stupid reason...anyhoo, here is the change that Dan T. requested, actually I can't see why that would be there and to me it makes more sense on the other side, but then I've also got those cork band liners too and it helps keep the cork from bunching when you tighten the bands round the tank (I've got one of those bridges on both sides of my tank, it just seemed the thing to do). But I think Dan may be right about which band that thing is supposed to go on...what it does do is make it real hard to get to that nut when tightening the band, I had to cut a small divot in the outside so I could place the cotter pin.

Also added the word "(Optional) to the in tank fuel filter, since it is an accessory and not a Ford requirement. But is it a damned good idea all the same. ;)

1920-25-26-27FuelTankAssembly-1-C.jpg
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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by TRDxB2 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:09 pm

I hope you mean this is a joke "I live in Sylmar and the freaking power keeps going on and off for some stupid reason" if not you'd better check the news.

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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by VowellArt » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:14 pm

The power company up here is the DWP, not Edison or PG&E (the DWP didn't shut down their grid) and that was a day ago when we had 60 - 70 mph winds up here, power round here fluctuates sometimes. The power that comes to this community is underground, but getting to this community it is above ground. I live in the hills of Sylmar, actually near the Pacoima Dam and sometimes (usually during high winds) the lights go out (or because some drunk hit a pole down below too)...this time though it was an underground vault to the South of us down the hill...took them 15 hours to get it back up and working again...fun never quits here in Commiefornia, from our crumbling, infrastructure, lousy streets and roads to our gas prices, yep, fun just never quits! :(

Notice the power down there is on? Up here not but down there near the fire, yep they got power! Fortunately the fire turned West and didn't come much further East than this...probably the winds forced it that direction...that flare up was when it hit something, probably a cars or RV's gas tank (a lot of homeless folks old broken down RV's are parked along Foothill over there), the fire seems to go really wild when that happens and it happened more than a dozen times (sometimes accompanies by muffled booms) whilst I watched the fire, making sure it wasn't coming our way.
7-5 minutes ago.jpg
This is one of the reasons I'm leaving Commiefornia...Fall here is just another word for Fire Season!
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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by Matt in California » Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:03 am

Martynn,
Now that I am a '26 Fordor owner (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8061), I really appreciate your work on this!

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Re: ***1920-1925 Fuel Tank Assembly & 1926-1927 Fordoor Sedans***

Post by DHort » Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:22 am

You can always purchase cork to place under the straps. It is available at Hobby Lobby, Michaels, etc. Or you can cut strips of rubber from an old inner tube and use that,too. I think the rubber would be better and less likely to fall apart. Anything to keep the metal strap from rubbing against the fuel tank.

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