TT radiator apron

[keen25]

I noticed that the Radiator Apron for the 1924 - 1927 TT is a bit different then the car. The distance of the "face" is longer, see the attached photos. How does the fender's "tab" conner that goes near the front cross member match up with the apron? Is anyone reproducing the TT Aprons?

[RajoRacer]

I believe both of those aprons are for a '26 - '27 as they both have the small hole for the retaining screw to fasten to the later spring clamp/engine mount.

[HPetrino]

I don't know the answer to your question, but thanks for posting this. Until now I thought I had discovered all the TT parts that make it different from a regular T. I didn't know the apron was different. Learn something every day.

[Dropacent]

I cannot imagine why there would be a difference. The frame is the same size at the front edge. Checking the parts books might shed some light.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

It's not just the length of the end tabs, the crank hole is also mounted lower. The whole apron is stretched.

It suggests that the TT front cross member is different than a T's. Is that true?

[DanTreace]

Yep

That's a TT radiator apron, they are larger for the bigger front crossmember on the TT.

And the motor/spring mount is bigger too for the TT, has longer threaded shanks.

Note the part # for the TT apron, 3977F

0E3A08BC-8254-4B50-ADA4-551F5F52DCCC_4_5005_c.jpeg (18.14 KiB) Viewed 11300 times

[keen25]

I also notice:
That the 26 / 27 TT apron I have has the slots for the nickel trim piece so then could the TT had a nickel radiator shell?
I think the spring clip for the 26 was changed; enlarged threaded, and I think the 25 back TT used the car spring clip so did Ford make a apron for just the TT 25 and back?
With the growing interest in the TT I wonder why Rootlieb or Howell are not making the TT apron I would think the tooling would be an easy modification?

[DanTreace]

I zoomed in on your photo of the TT apron, # 3977F, and appears a rectangular slit on the left, can't see the middle one, those slits are for the Nickel strip. Perhaps Ford just punched the 26-27 versions in case someone added the strip. Can't recall a factory photo of a TT with nickel shell, but perhaps!

As for the larger dia. and longer threaded shank motor mount, # 1164B , for '26-'27 TT,
those are because the later TT got the new heavy #1151 9 leaf front spring.

[Dropacent]

I have the remnants of an ‘18 TT frame and the front crossmember is the same as the car. That wouldn’t have had an apron, anyhew , but fun to learn something new about the later ones.

[Original Smith]

That has to be a difficult item to find. I wasn't aware there was a difference! Thanks for posting.

[Adam]

TT front crossmembers ARE different than the car crossmembers!

It’s the usual culprit when someone has an issue with the radiator inlet not properly aligning with the water outlet on the cylinder head. Usually what happens is someone replaces the front crossmember and a car gets a TT crossmember or a TT gets a car crossmember. Many times the radiator inlet gets “fixed” to line up by a radiator shop and when that radiator or crossmember is replaced, there is a problem again.

[keen25]

Dan, you made me think that maybe only the 26 /27 TT was different because of the 9 leaf spring? Different cross member, spring, spring clip, and radiator apron?
Also, my frame did not have the hole drilled in where the fender bracket bolts to the under side, in the cross member.

[Jim, Sr.]

The narrow apron with the hole is actually 1926-27 TT. The 1924-25 TT uses the same as the 1924-25 Model T car.
What makes it confusing, the 1926-27 Model T car has hood shelves that come all the way to the front of the frame, and the radiator is mounted on top, which requires the wider apron. The 1924-27 TT uses Model T car hood shelves, which do not go under the radiator. So, the radiator is lower and requires a narrow apron.
In the classifieds, Mark Chaffin has a nice 1926-27 TT apron for sale.

[Allan]

What's even more confusing is the use of the descriptors, wide and narrow. Wide refers to width. Width is measured from left to right. All of the aprons are the same width. What varies is the depth from top to bottom.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

[DanTreace]

Eric

Yes, the '26-'27 TT introduced the 9 leaf front spring. So new #1164B front mount (front motor bearing and spring clip), was needed for the taller stack of that front spring and that front mount that had the threaded hole for apron screw.

The crossmember for the TT remained as #1122, same for all years TT.

Only the '26-'27 got that wider or high type radiator apron, #3977F, as it also had the screw for the new mount #1164B.
My guess is Ford changed to that taller apron with the screw as part of improved looks! The higher apron covered more of the crossmember.

The '24-'25 TT with high radiator got a std. T apron, #3977.

[DanTreace]

Just for kicks, here is a restored TT sporting that wider apron.

Front view TT .jpg (69.46 KiB) Viewed 11197 times

[Allan]

Dan, you are a bad man. I just got descriptors sorted out and you talk about wide aprons again! If you are consistent, then you will henceforth refer to high radiators as wide radiators.

Allan from down under.

[keen25]

I thought that the front of the TT Chassis / frame was the same as the car but, I took a measurement in the front area where the radiator is mounted and the TT is about 11/16" larger. see photo.
I measured a car, 1925 back, chassis at 2" and the 1926 TT at 2 11/16". I feel this is reason for the difference in the car and TT Aprons. I have only the 26/27 TT frames so I can not say what the 1925 TT back is but I think the frames and cross member are all the same for the 1918 through the 1927 TT? So would this mean the Aprons for the 1925 would be different, 11/16" more the the 1925 car apron?

I show a picture with a "modified" tabs bent to make a 25 car apron fit to align with the pan's crank hole.

I also, just installed some new rivets which are different then the Cars, larger diameter head. Mcmaster part number 97032A389

[J Sundstrom]

Jim Sr.
Have this apron pictured here. It’s either the middle or lower one you posted. Mine is almost 24” wide. Is that the narrow or wider version. Excess parts Like to verify what it goes to.
Thanks John

[Dropacent]

Gosh, I need to re-read this thread several times. I cannot get my brain wrapped around it. Great thread

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

What's even more confusing is the use of the descriptors, wide and narrow. Wide refers to width. Width is measured from left to right. All of the aprons are the same width. What varies is the depth from top to bottom.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

No. The depth is the same too. It's the height we're all referring to.

[Original Smith]

The 1925 passenger cars had the option of using a nickel shell. Only once, I saw an apron for a nickel shell with the slots for the nickel trim piece. Knowing Jim Rodell, he probably has one!

[J Sundstrom]

Thanks Smith for identifying my apron above. That’s what mine has a separate trim piece held by tabs on back. John

[Jim, Sr.]

Larry,
I wonder if the 1925 type apron that you saw was made by adding the 1926-27 nickel strip. It is easy to make the three little slots in the 1925 apron. It fits perfectly, and even the little hole matches up for the choke wire.
On April 30, 1925, Ford issued a Factory Letter offering the nickel plated radiator shell, apron , and headlamp rims, to dress up the 1925 models. In June, it was also issued in a Service Bulletin. For a short while they were also listed in the Price List of Parts.
The only nickel plated 1925 apron, #3977B, that I have found does not have very good plating. The nickel plating over steel did not hold up well.

I have never seen an old photo of a 1925 with the nickel plated trim, either. It would be nice to see a 1925 trimmed out with all of the nickel.

[Jim, Sr.]

What's even more confusing is the use of the descriptors, wide and narrow. Wide refers to width. Width is measured from left to right. All of the aprons are the same width. What varies is the depth from top to bottom.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

Allan ,
Width is not always measured from left to right. If you had a pin stripe or a band painted around the belt line of your Model T, you could describe it as being wide or narrow. Or, if you use a belt to hold up your trousers, it may be wide or narrow.
Wide whitewall tires are another example.

[Dropacent]

I’m moving this over here to see if I can get a consensus. Reading above, lots of conflicting info, and the encyclopedia is no help. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the longer/taller/wider valance, shown to the right in the very first picture, is late T, 1926-7. The one to the left ( shorter height) would be a TT, and earlier cars, 1923 into 1925.
I have what was likely a commercial chassis, it’s had a station wagon body since new. 1926, it has the fordor style firewall, heavier springs and the center mounting hole below the crank hole does not line up with the motor mount screw hole.
I’m expecting the Longer/taller/wider valance I just purchased will fix that problem. Other than the hole, the shorter valance looks fine and covers the front crossmember well.

[Allan]

Jim, you are right about the pin stripe/belt etc. My point is width is a measure of how wide something is. I am betting if you asked someone how wide a T frame is they would not measure it from the rear cross member to the front. These aprons all cross the frame at the front. As far as I know, all T and TT frames are the same width, so the aprons too will be the same width. What varies is how high they are, and how different spring packs are different heights, and motor mounts are different lengths in the thread to accommodate this.

Various posters were using width to describe two different dimensions. I was trying to get some uniformity in language so that the confusion was cleared up.

Allan from down under.

[Jim, Sr.]

Tim,
The first pictures that started this shows a 1926-27 Model T passenger car radiator apron on the right, T3977-E, without the nickel trim strip.
On the left is an apron for 1926-27 TT, part #T3977-F , factory #TT8016. If it did not have the small hole below the crank hole, it would be a #T3977, which is for 1924-25 Models T and TT.
If you have 1926-27 Model T hood, fenders, and hood shelves that are longer and reach the front of the frame, then the radiator sits higher, and the tallest , 1926-27 Model T radiator apron is required. If you are using 1924-25 Model T or 1924-27 TT hood, fenders, and hood shelves, then you would use a #T3977-F with the screw hole below the crank hole.

[Dropacent]

Thank you very much, Jim. I have it now.

[keen25]

Jim,
Are your springs in the back 2 piece?

[keen25]

Tim,
I am I correct that you say the crank hole lines up with the apron you have now?

[keen25]

Jim,
The picture at the top shows a side by side comparison; on the left is a 26/27 car radiator apron and on the right a 26/27 TT truck radiator apron.
The one on the right is 11/16" longer (top to bottom, y axis, height). The extra 11/16" is added in the area at the 12 o'clock location on the crank hole and at "up" to the edge covered by the nickel accent strip on the 26/27 models.

[keen25]

I am sorry but I meant to sent the above three replys to Tim.

[D Stroud]

I have ADD which has plagued me all of my life, and I am TOTALLY confused now. All I have been able to decifer now is that there is a difference between the T aprons and the TT aprons, which I had no idea that there is a difference between them. I still don't know which is which with all of the different "height", "width", "up", "down" dimensions that have been posted. To me, height is up and down, width is left to right. So is the TT apron "higher" than the T version, or "lower" in height? I didn't even know there was a difference between the T front crossmember and the TT crossmember until several years ago. Still confused, but always learning. (mostly over and over ) Dave

[keen25]

I added photos with tags to ID dimensions, TT is the truck, T is the car.
The Crank hole to the screw hole appares to be the same in both the TT and T.

[Dropacent]

We need to get together on this until we have facts we can agree on. Eric, Jim has provided his info, along with part number. I believe Jim Rodell to have it correct and here is why.
I have a 1926 commercial chassis. It’s had a station wagon body on it since it was a pup. It has all the details of a commercial chassis as provided by FoMoCo. It came to me as either a very low mileage vehicle or one that had been well restored somewhere back in time. The “short in height” rad. valance that it came with would never line up well with the additional screw hole that is on the late style motor mount. It’s the example shown in your first post, on the left. The crank fits OK, but I ended up using a fake screw to show that it’s complete. I may have massaged it a bit to get the crank in the hole, but 10+ years ago now, I just don’t remember. It does cover the front of the frame, and I’ll take some pics later today to post.
John Sundstrom is graciously sending me his “taller in height” valance ,example shown in your first picture, on the right. When it gets here on Monday, I’m expecting it will fit right on, and I’ll report back then what I find.
Now, what I don’t know is if the commercial chassis is the same in other aspects to the rest of the passenger car line.
Having said all this, I find it intriguing to still find new to me info after playing with Lizzie for over 50 years now. Let’s hash this out for her sake.

[henryford2]

I know I'm late to the game on this post and may not be offering anything "new", but I finally walked out and looked at my 26 Fordor and it has the taller apron. For what its' worth. Enjoy and stay safe.

[keen25]

Hi HenryFord2, can you take a picture a bit back and get the entire front of the radiator area in the shot? Also, the area around the radiator looking down over the fender? thank you Erick