Worn radius rod ball......suggestions?

[Daisy Mae]

So in my continuing adventures checking condition of all components on Daisy ('14 Touring), I have encountered the most worn part to date....the radius rod ball. The ball itself is badly worn, and, at some point in the past an APCO was installed no doubt in an effort to deal with the slop, but, it was on there long enough to wear the seat down....
Soooo...uhm, nope, don't feel safe rolling her out on the road as is...

Options...
* I imagine actually finding an early radius rod in decent condition would be chasing unicorns....
* I could weld up some material and file/shape/polish....tedious at best...but I am retired...
* I see Snyders has a weldable replacement ball (if they actually have it in stock), and I live in a shipyard town so finding a competent welder won't be a problem....I'm not good enough to trust myself doing that part...

Question being, has anyone done the last two? Thoughts? Recommendattions/suggestions? I know yall have 'em...let me know! Thanks...

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Here is one possible solution. But, it's only half of your problem. The socket in the pan is pretty well shot too.

https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/prod ... &cat=41901

[Dan Hatch]

For your viewing pleasure
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1406159419

[Daisy Mae]

I'm leaning to the replacement ball, was curious if anyone had done one. Sounds straight forward/simple measurements...

But ya, lots of galling on that ball every direction...the pan mount worries me not being an easy replacement part...unless I can shape/pound in some type of shim....been researching that and seems like gonna be a hurdle... this is my first stumper on Daisy as to direction to go... but also a critical one...

[Norman Kling]

I have used grease soaked leather in the socket in the crankcase. This will keep from wearing out the new ball. Then install a new cap and you should be fine.Tighten it enough to take out play, and let the springs hold it in place. They will expand to keep the cap up if the ball or leather wears. Check from time to time when you oil and grease the car.
Norm

[speedytinc]

I too, shy away from welding on a new ball. Seems like a failure point.
I use my wire welder to layer up beads, being careful not to get the ball cherry red. Build it up oversize & hand grind with a 3" angle grinder with 40 grit to start. Finish with 120. Use a vernier caliper & take frequent readings to determine where to grind. Being careful, perfection is possible.

I dont like using shims on any front end component. They all eventually pound out. I prefer a permanent fix.

The pan has a simple fix also.
Need longer studs.(good hard ones. NAPA has em) I place spacers over the studs. 7/16 nuts work well. Place a new cap on the spacers as your receptacle. Place another new cap as originally placed. Add springs, castle nuts & safety wire.. The anchor point becomes about 5/8" lower, but that is a small change to your caster to the better stability wise. Done this trick many times including on my freeway flyer.

[Daisy Mae]

@speedytinc...I too don't like shims....your pan fix is an interesting, iand easy fix for the pan issue...

@norman King... your idea is one I actually considered beyond a metal option. I was reminded by stories my Dad told me, who owned a 36 Ford Cabriolet in his youth...it had a worn main bearing, but no money to fix, he claimed to being able to keep it running using leather stuffed up for a bearing, and could keep it going a few hundred miles at a whack! LOL

[Daisy Mae]

For your viewing pleasure
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1406159419

Thanks for the link! I had not come across that one yet.
Fascinating fix...he has more cred/skills than I'd be able to muster in my shop, with my hands.

[Daisy Mae]

Thanks everyone for chiming in! I appreciate it!

[Erik Johnson]

I would find a wishbone with a better ball.

Years ago, the very talented late Don Cusack welded-up and ground down a couple of wishbone balls for my father and me. However, the balls weren't anywhere near as worn as yours.

During the process of grinding down the ball, Don used a washer with a 1 1/4" inner diameter as a gauge so he could make it as uniform as possible.

If you look at this thread, you can see where Chris Bamford made a gauge to accomplish the same goal.

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/1 ... 1318031604

[Daisy Mae]

The link is broke

[Erik Johnson]

I fixed the link.

[Vonau]

I also have a problem in the same place. My bullet is good but the pan is worn out. Would it be possible to fill the pan with brass solder and then finish it? Wouldn't brass be a better surface to protect the ball?

greetings from Switzerland

[Karl Von Neumann]

Get a newer wishbone will a good ball and weld the early ends on it done easy cheap effective. I've got a bunch of later wishbone to sell ill even cut one up if you need

[John kuehn]

I think it’s time to jack your car up using two Jack stands under the frame near the front of the car. Sooner and not later on a T it becomes a must do.
Next step is to drop the complete front end and replace the axle and king pin bushings and the other bushings in the assembly. Lay it on a work bench for ease of repair.
Replace the steering arm, and repair replace the tie rods with better ones. Look for or repair a better wishbone. Lang’s has new old stock steering balls. I finally replaced the steering tire rod end with a NOS one and it tightens the assembly up and after I rebuilt the whole assembly it’s really responsive and steers great.
After a 100 years it was time for a complete renew.

The pan wishbone socket fix is either a piece of leather or a use a nickel and gently round it in a socket with a ball peen hammer.
That’s a homemade shim. If not that it’s a pan removal and replace the wishbone socket on it.

[Daisy Mae]

Yup, that is how I discovered it. I've been going thru the entire car checking condition, repairing/replacing as I go.
I'm now in the middle of going thru the front suspension, took it out to replace the usual...kingpin and tie rod bolts, sleeve bushings, shackles, etc etc...how I discovered the ball. The steering arm and tie rod ball were replaced by the prior owner in the late 60's, but the car was not used afterwards....they check good.

But.....the story deepens....next posts...

[Daisy Mae]

Having pulled the rod I could inspect more closely...some surprises...

The ball itself is badly worn....

Top to bottom flattened, micked at 1 1/16".

Right to left, it micked out at 1 11/32".

The wear pattern was obviously more vertical vs horizontal, but also reflected a lot of fore/aft forces where the forward portion of the ball was wearing conical.

This wear pattern fore/aft was also evident in the socket, as can be seen on the lower aft portion of the socket.

But with that much forward wear on the ball, I also expected to see a significant ridge developed on the forward face of the socket...while there is some, it's minor, not like I expected...

It also appears in the last pic there was an indent on the pan drivers side...major bump/minor accident?

[Daisy Mae]

So...thinking why so much fore/aft tension...which...is to be expected, but still....

Beyond the dent in the pan, yet more evidence of some mishap in her life....

The radius rod ends are seriously bent....

Also, not sure if this amount of brazing up the shaft was factory normal, but....the ball shank and rod shaft were pinned on one side....so obviously a broke rod repaired back in the day...

The T archeological dig continues...

[John kuehn]

The wishbones at swap meets use to be plentiful and cheap. You can still find a much better one instead of replacing or repairing that one. It’s good that you removed the front axle assembly and completely going thru it. You’re on your way to a different driving T after you get it done. Any slack in the steering box under the steering wheel? That’s another place that gets worn and has a little slack. After years of use we get use to the slack in the front end but a tight assembly is all the difference!

[John kuehn]

The wishbones at swap meets use to be plentiful and cheap. You can still find a much better one instead of replacing or repairing that one. It’s good that you removed the front axle assembly and completely going thru it. You’re on your way to a different driving T after you get it done. Any slack in the steering box under the steering wheel? That’s another place that gets worn and has a little slack. After years of use we get use to the slack in the front end but a tight assembly is all the difference! Your question about factory brazing is understandable. If you remove all the grime and paint from the oil pan motor mounts and pan ball socket you’ll see what a “splash” Ford made with his assembly line brazing!

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Also, not sure if this amount of brazing up the shaft was factory normal, but....the ball shank and rod shaft were pinned on one side....so obviously a broke rod repaired back in the day...

That's how they were made. Riveted and brazed.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I wouldn't be so sure that the wishbone ends are bent, as in "damaged". There are some angles built into them that control your caster angle. What does appear to be the case, is that the stud ends are worn to a taper. When the studs fit into the spring perches they are supposed to be a snug fit. If they are sloppy loose, then the studs are worn and most likely, the holes in the perches as well. For safety and steering control, it is essential that these fits be snug.

[Daisy Mae]

Which begs the question, if there is a built in curve, how much is it/where/radius?
Anyone have a pic of a good early rod for comparison??

Mine has a significant difference one side vs the other, as well as a torsional difference in relative angles of the pins to each other, as well as with the rods. The worst bent side also appears as if the pin was thrust at the rod end...visible flare...

Thinking this rod has some serious issues...

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Which begs the question, if there is a built in curve, how much is it/where/radius?
Anyone have a pic of a good early rod for comparison??

Mine has a significant difference one side vs the other, as well as a torsional difference in relative angles of the pins to each other, as well as with the rods. The worst bent side also appears as if the pin was thrust at the rod end...visible flare...
20240728_164540.jpg

That's a better perspective. I'd say that wishbone is done for.

[Daisy Mae]

Which begs the question, if there is a built in curve, how much is it/where/radius?
Anyone have a pic of a good early rod for comparison??

Mine has a significant difference one side vs the other, as well as a torsional difference in relative angles of the pins to each other, as well as with the rods. The worst bent side also appears as if the pin was thrust at the rod end...visible flare...
20240728_164540.jpg

That's a better perspective. I'd say that wishbone is done for.

Beginning to think the same....

[John kuehn]

Ive been looking at past wishbone posts and there is A LOT OF THEM. More than a few folks have had problems with the earlier pre 19 wishbones since they are a little weaker than the later 19-27 wishbones. The earlier would bend easier and an extra brace was put under the car along with wishbone. It seems that the later ones would fit and owners would do that to stop the bending problem of the early as the several posts about it reported. Flipping over the wishbone was done also if it was bent and the original castor was back as it should be. That’s a practice I didn’t know about if the wishbones were bent. Learn something new again on the forum.

[Dan Hatch]

A few years ago I found a stash of NOS early wishbones. Thought I had found King Tuts tomb, till I looked at them.
They had been stood on their ends with the balls up. But the studs had been in the dirt floor and most had the ends rusted off. Some poor soul ears were burning.
Sold a few for cheap at swap meet.

Another time I was looking at stuff at an old general store in Mississippi. There in the back warehouse along with a truck load of NOS parts for wood cook stoves was a NOS early wishbone hanging on the wall with a shipping tag still on it. Guy would not sell it, his brother in law wanted it.

I may still have a few of them. Will look if you are interested.

[tdump]

Some how,some way i had come across a replacement ball socket for the oil pan and i installed it on a pan with rivets, the brazing and such and that is under my ton truck now. was not difficult,just time consuming, but i have yet to ever see another replacement ball socket. Maybe I aint looked in the right places?

[Allan]

Is anyone else of the opinion that the cant of the axle to get the correct caster is built into the forged ends of the over axle wishbones, leaving the rods/tubes back to the pan straight?

Allan from down under.

[Allan]

I read back through the posts and answered my own question. Jerry Van has also noticed that the forged ends are used to set the caster. The rods/tubes are supposed to be straight.

Allan from down under.

[Allan]

With the repairs noted in the older thread by boring a ball bearing and threading it onto a ground down stem at the ball site, there is no wakening of the ball like you might get welding it up back to size. The threaded spiggot made is still larger than the neck on the ball. All that has been done is replace the worn section of the ball. A good tack weld is insurance to stop the ball coming loose on the thread.

I have done the same on early pitman arms, their forgings being lighter in appearance than any of the replacements available. Welding a stop on the thread is essential in this application.

Alan from down under.

[Daisy Mae]

Is anyone else of the opinion that the cant of the axle to get the correct caster is built into the forged ends of the over axle wishbones, leaving the rods/tubes back to the pan straight?

Allan from down under.

Allan,
That was my belief, why I was confused at the thought that the rods had a curve....didn't make sense to me in my experience.
My pins are splayed different directions up/down, and one of the bars is significantly bent more than the other, which would only serve to torque the axle off square...
Would take a lot of bending on each component, while introducing more metal fatigue, to correct. I'm of the mind this wishbone has seen enough....

[speedytinc]

The wear on the mounting studs tells the story. That front end has seen a lot of hard miles.
I'd be looking hard @ every component, including the front cross member.

[Oldav8tor]

If you drive your car a lot, have you considered converting to a newer style wishbone? They are more plentiful, but you'd then have to replace the the perches as well. BTW - Langs lists a replacement pan socket for 3-dip pans. Yeah, not original I know, but safer. There is a reason that they were changed in the Model T's later production. The attached article has a few errors (bad memories) but describes and event that occurred just up the road from where I live. For my 1917, I added an under-wishbone but retained the original over-wishbone.

[Allan]

The socket on the pan was changed when the four dip inspection plate was introduced. It had to be redesigned to enable this change, not necessarily to make it any better/safer. The 1917 problem was addressed by adopting the under-the-axle wishbone.

Allan from down under.

[Daisy Mae]

The wear on the mounting studs tells the story. That front end has seen a lot of hard miles.
I'd be looking hard @ every component, including the front cross member.

The car did a cross country MI to CO for the inaugural Pikes Peak race. With the condition of rural roads then...or no roads... no telling what that front suspension endured just in its first two years of life!

But yes, not knowing the condition of this car, basically idle since 1930, she's not venturing out on the road until I've inspected/gone thru everything. At least I'll know where she stands.

[QuestQuencher]

Tough situation with Daisy! Finding a good radius rod is tricky. Welding up and reshaping could work if you’re patient, but the Snyders weldable replacement sounds solid. Just make sure you get a good welder. Keep us updated!

[Allan]

I would only use the Snyder's weld on replacement as the donor for a new ball. It will look pig ugly, but likely safe in use. I'd rather see the radius rod looking standard with the new ball fitted to a replacement radius rod. But that's just my opinion.

Allan from down under.

[WayneJ]

Check with Lang's, they sell used parts. I was able to buy a wishbone from them earlier this year.

[Daisy Mae]

I would only use the Snyder's weld on replacement as the donor for a new ball. It will look pig ugly, but likely safe in use. I'd rather see the radius rod looking standard with the new ball fitted to a replacement radius rod. But that's just my opinion.

Allan from down under.

Exactly my same fear. A replacement ball was OK in my mind, I'm surrounded by professional welders. But both the rods and pins would have to be bent...and that much bending on a 110 year old part introducing that much more metal fatigue in the tubes was not something I considered safe....

Dan Hatch has graciously offered/sold me a good spare wishbone he had. So that problem solved!

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Dan Hatch has graciously offered/sold me a good spare wishbone he had. So that problem solved!

Excellent news. Next thing is to check for proper fit with the perches.

[Karl Von Neumann]

Which begs the question, if there is a built in curve, how much is it/where/radius?
Anyone have a pic of a good early rod for comparison??

Mine has a significant difference one side vs the other, as well as a torsional difference in relative angles of the pins to each other, as well as with the rods. The worst bent side also appears as if the pin was thrust at the rod end...visible flare...
20240728_164540.jpg
Thinking this rod has some serious issues...

Here's a pic of what is should look like. (Been saving parts for a spare front end ) I have one on a terrible front end I found in the wild I just want the bracket off it the one leg of the bone is bent but the ball seems decent and the nuts are still on it it could be forsale if you need it I attached pics of both

[TRDxB2]

Easy fix - not popular enough? Whatever the solution its important not to change its length. wishbone ends to top of ball

[Daisy Mae]

Which begs the question, if there is a built in curve, how much is it/where/radius?
Anyone have a pic of a good early rod for comparison??

Mine has a significant difference one side vs the other, as well as a torsional difference in relative angles of the pins to each other, as well as with the rods. The worst bent side also appears as if the pin was thrust at the rod end...visible flare...
20240728_164540.jpg
Thinking this rod has some serious issues...

Here's a pic of what is should look like. (Been saving parts for a spare front end ) I have one on a terrible front end I found in the wild I just want the bracket off it the one leg of the bone is bent but the ball seems decent and the nuts are still on it it could be forsale if you need it I attached pics of both

Thanks Karl. I was able to secure one.
I would have loved to have had that original double wishbone setup had it been in good shape

[Daisy Mae]

Easy fix - not popular enough? Whatever the solution its important not to change its length. wishbone ends to top of ball

Yup, that ultimately was going to be my route, if it wasn't for my rods being bent.

[John kuehn]

Can the wishbone be straightened? Is there evidence FOR SURE that it has a built in slight off set or whatever? Or is it just conjecture. The later ones were straight and why should the earlier ones be any different if the later would work if you replaced the perches. But maybe earlier perches allowed for an offset?

[Karl Von Neumann]

Which begs the question, if there is a built in curve, how much is it/where/radius?
Anyone have a pic of a good early rod for comparison??

Mine has a significant difference one side vs the other, as well as a torsional difference in relative angles of the pins to each other, as well as with the rods. The worst bent side also appears as if the pin was thrust at the rod end...visible flare...
20240728_164540.jpg
Thinking this rod has some serious issues...

Here's a pic of what is should look like. (Been saving parts for a spare front end ) I have one on a terrible front end I found in the wild I just want the bracket off it the one leg of the bone is bent but the ball seems decent and the nuts are still on it it could be forsale if you need it I attached pics of both

Thanks Karl. I was able to secure one.
I would have loved to have had that original double wishbone setup had it been in good shape
[/quote

If a guy had the bracket a guy could make the pipes I have a good one on my car. Really that's why I grabbed that axle was for the bracket

[Allan]

True, the later ones were straight. However, the cant provided by the built in angle on the forged ends of the over-axle wishbone still needs to be in the later ones. It is provided for by the set angle on the forged ends which are held in place by the under-axle perch nut. Both rods need the cant to set caster.It is just achieved by slightly different means.
They rods can be bent, right at the axle, and the good book says it can/needs to be done to reset the caster. However, the bend required to adjust the caster is not likely noticeable to the naked eye

Allan from down under.