Fuel Line

[bill goodheart]

Are there any good alternatives to the steel fuel line? This is for my 1919 nonstarter touring. I was thinking of something more flexible. I am not sure I will be able to properly bend the steel line without kinking it.
Is bending the steel line easier than I think it is?

[MWalker]

Yes, it's easy to bend the steel fuel line. Most folks use brake lines for that. Lang's has a brass fuel line available, which is what came on them and of course it's easily bendable.

[John.Zibell]

Pretty easy to bend steel line. Many auto parts stores sell a relatively inexpensive hand held bending tool for brake line. The tool helps to prevent kinks.

[Been Here Before]

You may want to review this site:
https://modeltfordfix.com/replacing-the ... el-t-ford/

[perry kete]

These simple tubing benders will work and are inexpensive. Available at most home improvement stores.

[Don D]

Bill,

Back in January, I went to Auto Zone and purchased tube bending pliers for $10.99. They worked great for my project.

Best of luck,

Dom

[DHort]

I use copper fuel line that has the thicker walls. Refrigerator tubing is thin wall - not good. Then for the ends I use neoprene or felt. Do not use flared copper tubing. Add extra support along the frame to hold it in place so it does not vibrate all over creation.

[John Illinois]

Ni-Cop brake line makes good fuel lines.It is an alloy of nickel and copper and looks like copper. Does not work harden and is easy to bend.
Most auto parts stores have it. It is great to work with and it does not corrode.


John

[DanTreace]

Here is older post, with sketch and my how-to to bend the steel brake line. Easy hand bend, large radius is used.


viewtopic.php?t=16436

[A Whiteman]

If using copper, it is recommended to bend a full loop in the line (about 6 to 8 inches diameter is fine- usually placed just under the fuel tank on the T), this helps control vibration / lessen work hardening effect over time.

This is a topic with very strong views, please respect that some of us have been using copper for decades with no issues. Choice of steel is fine with its own merits.

[speedytinc]

Copper tubing & compression rings dont mix. I have seen 2 potentially catastrophic failures ON THE SAME T.
Some guys dont listen or learn.

[mbowen]

I bought a steel fuel line from Snyder’s, and it came with a sketch showing 3.5 and 4 inch radius bends at specific positions. I made up a couple of wood bending dies at those radii, clamped them and the fuel line to another board and made the bends by hand. Looking at the finished line you can’t tell they weren’t made on a machine. I used the Windows Paint program to lay out the patterns for the dies, but a protractor and drafting compass would work fine. The attached photos show the sequence of making the bends (the first bend needs to be made with only one die in place because you have to overbend to account for springback). Even though my resulting line matches the sketch, it will need a little tweaking to fit exactly, but it’s a good start.

[A Whiteman]

Some guys dont listen or learn.

I have to agree with you there John .

I have seen catastrophic problems with steel lines rusting and cracking.

Some guys just don't listen or learn ... to safe installation and maintenance advice, whatever they are doing.

Don't just install it, but check it regular too.

[bill goodheart]

Thanks for so many helpful responses, actually all of the responses have been very helpful. The phots and description of the bending process are great. I have learned a lot from everyone. I feel more confident about my ability to properly bend the line.

[Oldav8tor]

I started out with nickel-copper tubing for a fuel line....big mistake. I started to get a little leakage at the carb fuel valve. Upon examination, found that the end in the compression fitting was distorted (right pix.) Checking the sediment bowl it was even worse (left pix.) Replaced it with steel brake line which bent easily by hand with no kinks. If you're concerned, lay it across a curved surface like a tin can or the like when bending it.

[DanTreace]

For those who use compression collar on copper line, snugged in the nut… here is another fracture causing carb leak. Failure after quite a few years, the crimp to the copper line by that compression collar ‘done it in’ Lots of vibration on the Ford.

[Emeraude]

Am asking the question on why not use the modern flexible rubber ( probably wrong phrase) . It is easy to route. I have used them in my airplanes without any problems. Just be careful on routing too close to the exhaust.

[John Illinois]

I think the ni cop line is not designed for ferrules, it is brake line to be double flared.

John

[TXGOAT2]

A steel or nickle/copper fuel line is best. It should be routed and shaped exactly as the original line was done to avoid problems with exesssive heat and trapped air pockets. The line needs to be anchored correctly to avoid breakage and chaffing.

[bill goodheart]

I intend to use steel brake line, but am confused about the size. On Royce's website they say quarter inch O. D. is good. That would probably be about 3/16" I. D." which seems small to me. Somewhere on here I saw 5/16" would be best. Is brake line available in both sizes?
Which is best? On the bending diagrams shown in these replies which end goes toward the sediment bowl? Some people have said it goes above the exhaust and some have said put it under the exhaust ?

[TXGOAT2]

Use the larger ID.

[Art M]

I appreciate the drawing for the bends in the fuel line. However, it would have been nice if the drawing would have included the angle of the bends. After some ciphering, I determined that each angle should be bent at 61 degrees.

This assumes that the dimensions are at the center line of the tubing. The solution to this involves a statically indeterminate equation.

Art Mirtes

[mbowen]

I appreciate the drawing for the bends in the fuel line. However, it would have been nice if the drawing would have included the angle of the bends. After some ciphering, I determined that each angle should be bent at 61 degrees.

This assumes that the dimensions are at the center line of the tubing. The solution to this involves a statically indeterminate equation.

Art Mirtes

I noticed the same thing and did the same math. I laid them out using 60 degrees. I figure there are small differences car to car and it would need a little tweaking on installation.

[mbowen]

… On the bending diagrams shown in these replies which end goes toward the sediment bowl?…

I believe the 4” straight end comes out of the sediment bowl and the 28” straight end goes toward the carburetor (assuming the drawing is right side up).

[Oldav8tor]

This might help a bit. From a 1922 Ford Service Bulletin.

[bill goodheart]

Thanks Miles that is what I need to know, Thanks to Tim for the drawing from the service bulletin that is also very helpful.

[Scott_Conger]

I am adding this information because the conversation headed in this direction via responses from others. It is offered with complete certainty of the facts, and brings an issue to light which has persisted in the hobby for a long time...in fact, too long of a time.

Standard "1/4" pipe is just fine. If you think it is too small to feed the carb, just disconnect it and see how many seconds it takes to drain the tank.

The only reason people go to 5/16 lines (and sometimes fuel pumps, to boot) is because they have a too-small float valve in their carb. Commercial float valves have been made wrong for our hobby for at least 20 years and they are in most every instance, the single cause for inability to climb hills without a completely full tank and causing heating and surging at speed (which is almost universally declared to be "vapor lock"). Nothing could be further from the truth.

If you buy a commercial valve like is shown on the left, you have reduced the area of flow by nearly 50% compared to a correctly made valve on the right. Put on a 5/16" line, or connect a fire hose...do whatever you wish...but all the fuel you can feed the carb will still be strangled to a dribble, by a defectively designed valve.

standard vs full flow.jpg (32.95 KiB) Viewed 6198 times

[Oldav8tor]

There is a nice article on Scott's full-flow valve in the Sept-Oct 2021 Model T Times if you are a MTFCI member.

[RajoRacer]

One would need to verify the fuel inlet openings in the gas tank, carburetor & both pack nuts as they're made for 1/4" tubing - using 5/16" might cause an issue !

[bill goodheart]

I'm convinced I will be using 1/4" brake line. Thanks to everyone, I appreciate all of the responses.

[Darin Hull]

I purchased Scott’s full flow valve for my Holley NH swayback. Scott was very helpful and pleasant to interact with.

Read the article in the Model T Times about it recently… brief but a good description of the issue involving fuel flow and the bottle neck involved with a repo valve versus a full flow valve.

Darin

[Quickm007]

I used this tool for banding fuel line and work fine for the price.

brake bending tool 2.JPG (30.07 KiB) Viewed 5841 times

[mbowen]

I used this tool for banding fuel line and work fine for the price.
brake bending tool.JPG
brake bending tool 2.JPG

I have something similar for bending aircraft fuel lines but wanted to follow the instructions from Snyder’s, which call for larger radii than my tool can form; that’s why I came up with the wood dies.

[MichaelPawelek]

Sometimes I think we make things to complicated. Just bend the line similar to the pictures posted. Install and semi tighten at the carburetor. Then get under the T and carefully bend the line with your hands in a smooth curve making sure it is as far away from the tail pipe as necessary and then to the potato. This is really only a 5 minute job.

[mbowen]

im
Sometimes I think we make things to complicated. Just bend the line similar to the pictures posted. Install and semi tighten at the carburetor. Then get under the T and carefully bend the line with your hands in a smooth curve making sure it is as far away from the tail pipe as necessary and then to the potato. This is really only a 5 minute job.

Guilty as charged. If a 5- minute job takes me less than an hour I go back and see what I missed. In my defense however, when I bent my fuel line my car was up on jackstands for a front axle overhaul and I wasn’t comfortable being under it. I strongly suspected that a fuel line bent exactly to the sketch wouldn’t fit on the first try; I just wanted to get a head start on it.

[J1MGOLDEN]

Tim, your photo is an excellent example of why copper tubing should not be used.

By the time the nut attaching the coper line to the carburetor is tight enough to prevent a slight fuel drip, the tubing is squeezed almost shut and restricts the gas flow too where th car cannot fill up fast enough to accelerate your speed.

The bending photo does not sow which end goes to the fuel tank and may leave a person wondering.

The bend is closest to the fuel tank when properly installed and 3 inches usually have to be cut off the long straight section.

The line has to be installed first to verify the cut off part.

It also goes between the transmission cover and exhaust pipe.

[Quickm007]

Time line is different base on personnal reality. When I said to wife I'm gonna take 5 minutes for a job she already know it will take me several hours... But related to this topic, it took me 2 hours because I bent and measure the fuel line couple time under the car and didn’t fit on the first try. I'm may slow person but Also I'm not very flexible person too...

[DHort]

James

I have copper fuel lines. Never a problem and no crimping. Neoprene or felt, whatever I have handy. Just make sure the line is a bit long so it pushes into the fitting and cannot fall out.