Hayes wheel needed

[Mark Osterman]

I’m looking for a Hayes demountable rim 30 x 3 1/2” wheel with the notches where the bolts install the rim.

[Allan]

Mark, our Canadian sourced cars all have Kelsey wheels. I have never seen a Hayes wheel without a rolled outer edge to the felloe, either a 21" one or 23". Does the wheel you show Have a Hayes brand on it, perhaps in the well of the felloe or around the valve stem hole? If it is not branded Hayes, maybe it is by one of the other manufacturers, with notches to allow interchange of Hayes rims.

One day we will have definitive information on the variations in wheels/felloes/rims and how some of them will allow safe fitment.

Allan from down under.

[RajoRacer]

Didn't we talk about this a while back & you told me you had located one ?

Allan - I've both 23" & 21" with the straight side - I'll have to media blast one to see if they're stamped "Hayes".

[Allan]

Steve, on our 1925 and early 26 cars from Canada we still had 23" wheels. The later ones, before the 21" wheels on the improved cars, were the only ones we saw with fixed lugs. My 1925 barn fresh backboard , sold in Feb 26, still had Kelsey loose lug wheels. All of the 23" wheels had rolled in outer edges on the felloes.
I checked my stash of 21" Kelsey felloes today. All 7 of them have the straight up edge, but with no cut-out for a Hayes lug foot.

All the Hayes felloes I have seen have a rolled outer edge on the felloe. The 23" ones on Overland and Chev wooden spoked wheels have the outer felloe edge rolled in, with a relief for the Hayes lug foot pressed down to accommodate the lug. The same goes for the 23" laced Hayes wire wheels for model T's.

The 21" Hayes wire wheels have rhe edge of the felloe rolled outwards, necessitating a more drastic deformation of the felloe to accommodate the lug foot.

I cannot see any logic in Hayes making a different felloe just for model T's when standard Ford lugged rims will bolt right up.

I can see advantage in the manufacturer of the 23" wheels with the straight up edge on fhe felloe putting a notch in that straight up edge. That would allow Hayes rims to be fitted. Perhaps this was a Ford requirement in the interests of interchangeability. Hence my interest in knowing of any such felloes carrying the Hayes brand.

Allan from down under.

[CudaMan]

There is a Hayes felloe for sale on Ebay right now. Hard to tell from the pics if its notches for the lugs are cut or rolled.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145476583767?h ... R6aCsfuFYw

[Ken Buhler]

I recently disassembled about 120 wheels and stacked the felloes in their respective piles. I think there is some of those and will look today.

[RajoRacer]

Mark be me to it - just saw this a.m.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145476583767?h ... pvCtTs3rMP

[Allan]

Fellows. that felloe is different! The outside straight-up edge has no notches for the foot on a Hayes lug, so I doubt it is a Hayes felloe, this doubt being indicated by the sellers description Hayes or Ford. It also has a small raised rim around the outside of the straight-up outed edge that I have never seen on any T model felloe. It is for a fixed lug rim, having the wider rolled-out edge on the inside on which the rim wedges when fitted.

I would still be interested to see a Hayes brand stamped somewhere in a 23" felloe with the straight up outer edge.

Allan from down under.

[RajoRacer]

Looks like a notch on my computer !

[Allan]

Steve, if you compare it with the notch shown in the original post, the Ebay one looks more like a register mark where a Hayes lug foot has been jammed on. It does not look like a deliberate machining. I seriously doubt it will take a Hayes rim, so it is most likely not a Hayes felloe.

Allan from down under.

[CudaMan]

We'll know soon enough, I went ahead and bought it. When it arrives, I'll post closeups of the areas where either a notch, a dent, or nothing at all should be.

[Allan]

See if there is a maker's mark on it somewhere. I have never seen a felloe with that miniscule ridge around the outside of the felloe. The depression at the lug hole is only noticeable because that portion of the ridge is no longer there. The OD of the felloe is barely reduced, if at all.

Allan from down under.

[rickd]

Sorry for continuing this post but I am confused by the postings. I am restoring a set of Hayes rims and wheels for a 25 and I believe Mr. Osterman has a correct wheel to fit in a Hayes rim. The notches in the wheel are there to accomodate the lug on the rim. There is an excellent article about Demountable Rims in the July/August 2014 Model T Times.

[Allan]

Rick, your wheels will certainly take a Hayes rim with the foot on the lugs. That is not in doubt. My doubts are about labeling wheels with that straight-up edge on the felloe with the notches cut out as being manufactured by Hayes. They may be manufactured by others and the cut outs included so Hayes rims will interchange.

All the Hayes wheels I have seen, both wooden spoked and wire spoked, and for different makes of cars also, have a rolled outer edge on the felloe and a depression pressed into the felloe to accommodate the foot on the rim lug. It does not make sense for them to create another design, but who knows?
I would like to know of a wheel like yours with the straight-up felloe edge with a Hayes brand on it somewhere.

Our Canadian sourced 21" wheels for the 26-7 T's have that straight-up outer felloe edge. These were made by Kelsey. Perhaps the 23" ones like you show are also Kelsey, with notches so Hayes rims will interchange.

Allan from down under.

[Ken Buhler]

There is interesting and helpful discussion on this in the general discussion Jan 22, 2021.

Here is the link, lots of information. Chris
https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic. ... w=previous

[rickd]

Allan, I took a closer look at the wheels I am working on. I found markings on one of the rear wheels. While all four of them are the same, only the one rear was marked. I think its a Firestone marking. Paraphrasing from the CD version of the Encyclopedia, Wheel section, page 2 ...when Ford began making wheels, made by Firestone, all of the other brands including Hayes and Kelsey became interchangeable. Still doesn't get us any closer to finding a Hayes marked wheel but I learned a little more today.

[Allan]

Rick, what you found is what I suspected. The felloes with the straight up outer edge are likely not Hayes made, but are made to take Hayes rims to aid in interchangeability of rims. In a previous thread it was thought that your felloes were made for Ford by Firestone. With the cut-out in the felloe at the bolt hole, they will take both styles of fixed lug rims, Ford and Hayes.

Allan from down under.

[CudaMan]

Well, the mystery felloe arrived today, here are some pics of the areas where the lug bolts go. Looks similar to the wheels that Rick showed, but this one has no stampings of any kind on any of its surfaces, I checked multiple times. The spoke holes are punched for 1/2" tenons. Scott Conger emailed me to tell me it is a Ford rim, so it likely uses the standard Ford length spokes instead of the 1/32" longer spokes that the Hayes and Kelsey rims use.

If Mark O. decides he wants it, we have arranged for me to ship this felloe to him in exchange for a Hayes felloe he has with the dents for the lug feet.

[CudaMan]

I had another thought when examining this felloe, "what if it is a Chevy felloe and the valve stem hole doesn't line up with a Ford or Hayes or Kelsey rim? So, I took one of my modern aftermarket Hayes style rims (from Australia) and placed it on the felloe. Luckily, the valve stem holes line up correctly, see pics.

However, another thing I noticed is that three of the lug bolt holes don't line up very well. One does, but the other three are out of register by varying amounts, see pics.

So, what is this thing? Allan?

[Allan]

Mark, without wishing to cause any offence, I would say it is a felloe made by someone other than Hayes and made so that it would accept Hayes rims as well as others. I expect Ford demanded that their various suppliers produce wheels/rims which would allow interchangeability with each other. The only snag was the foot on the Hayes lug. Hence the cut-out to accept same on your felloe.

It would have been easy to have Hayes alter their lugs. However, they were major suppliers to other auto manufacturers and may not have been open to such a direction.

All Hayes rims I have ever seen, regardless of size or vehicle application have had depressed lands in the outside felloe edge to allow the foot on their lugs to mount. As yet, there has been no evidence to the contrary, but it may come in the future.

Allan from down under.