Spoke fail

[Craig Leach]

Putting together a set of wheels first one was a great success, second was a disaster. Using a Reagan press of a friends as I came close to flat
on the spokes they rotated in one direction. took the wheel apart & tried again & I got the opposite issue. tried everything I could think of but
every time the spokes rotated out of square with the fellow. has anyone had this issue??? I have tightened spokes before & never had this happen
as of now I have 12 destroyed spokes & a strong desire to never run a

wood wheel on a T ever again!!!!!

Craig

[Wayne Sheldon]

Canadian felloe? Happened to a friend and sometimes poster on this forum some years back. He ordered new spokes for his loose wheels on his roadster pickup. Finished them up real nice, then tried to assemble them. The wheels tried to do something very similar. A few phone calls, and some careful measuring discovered his felloes were slightly thicker and therefore required a slightly shorter spoke. Turned out the set of wheels he had bought for his RPU a few years earlier were Canadian wheels! And they require a spoke that is just a bit shorter than the USA spokes. He then special ordered spokes to fit his wheels. He had managed to destroy a few spokes trying to put together two wheels, and decided that he did not want to try to refit the spokes he had left. He very kindly offered the damaged and remaining spokes to me along with some other wheel pieces (I was putting together a set of wheels at the time). Me, being a cheapskate, I was able to repair some of the spokes and shorten them to fit my USA wheels steel.

[CudaMan]

Yes, I have had that happen with new spokes in my Hayes felloes (I did order the slightly longer spokes for Hayes and Kelsey wheels). I finally pinned the felloe to the press with four rim bolts pushed into blind holes in the press to hold the felloe until the spokes were firmly in place, then removed the rim bolts so that the felloe could expand as needed as I pressed the hub down the rest of the way. I still needed to watch the spokes carefully as I pressed and make minor adjustments as needed.

[Harvey Bergstrom]

Hi Craig,
I had a similar situation when I was pressing in new spokes for my ‘24 Touring. There are two different length spokes to be aware of and they differ by only 1/16 inch. I did have the correct spokes, but while pressing them with the Regan press, they too started to all angle in the same direction. I lifted them all back up and realigned them, but this time a put a light coat of motor oil on the mating sides of each spoke and they pressed in with ease. If they are too long, they will have tendency to twist because there is no room for the extra length to go. Best of luck to you !

[Allan]

I believe the difference in length is due to the different internal diameter of the felloes. It may not necessarily be a Canadian difference. The difference lies between wheels which take loose lug rims and those which take fixed lug rims, the loose lug felloes having the larger inside diameter, thus requiring longer spokes. In cross section, fixed lug type felloes are deeper. It may be that you have spokes to suit a loose lug felloe, and thus they are too long for your fixed lug felloes.

Canadian wheels are much easier to assemble. There is no need for a press. When the spokes are assembled ready to fit over the hub, the front to back taper on each spoke allows them to be tapped down with a mallet. First, those spokes with the wide side of the taper next to the hub backing plate can be tapped down somewhat, and then the alternate spokes with the wide side out can be tapped down to meet them. The process is repeated as often as needed until all the spokes are in position on the hub.

In Australia, with our Canadian sourced cars, only the last of the 1925 models had wheels with fixed lugs, requiring the use of the shorter spokes. A few Aussies have made the mistake of ordering spokes from the catalogs, only to find them too short for their earlier loose lug wheels.

Allan from down under.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Would it help maybe, to have a long bar, with 2 studs protruding, that would engage with the 2 of the 6 hub flange holes? A helper could manage the bar and use it to "steer" the hub, preventing it from rotating and allowing the spokes to skew. Obviously, the felloe would need to be restrained as well.

Are you certain your spokes are ruined? I would imagine the corners at the outer ends are a bit mashed, but this wheel, once assembled, is going to be super tight so I'm not sure it will be a real issue. Besides, what do you have to loose by trying what I've suggested? If it doesn't work, at least you haven't ruined another set of spokes, and if the spoke damage still looks bad after assembly, you can always remove them and start fresh with a new set and an improved method.

[John kuehn]

You mentioned the spokes were destroyed. Are you sure about that? What happened to them to be unusable.

[Steve Jelf]

I tried pressing a wheel with the felloe fastened in place with bolts, like yours. John pointed out that he designed the press to be used with the felloe free to move.

The hub end of the spokes needs to be uniform and made for them to fit together correctly.

I've found that lubricating the hub end of the spokes with a candle helps them slide into position.

I found that a cardboard collar helps the "tent" of spokes stay in place.

At first I used washers to keep the hub centered.

Then I made my own "washers", which worked better.

Either way, you need something to keep the hub centered.

I lubricate the "business end" of the spokes with a candle.

[Steve Jelf]

Note the Masonite on top of the blocks. It helps the felloe move to its best position.
The extra ¾" plywood added under the blocks allows plenty of space for front wheel hubs to go all the way down as far as they should.

Being no good at drilling holes straight, I made a drill guide.

[RGould1910]

Nice work, Steve.

[MKossor]

Steve, nice work and wonderful documentation as usual. Thank You for sharing your methods and experience.

[Steve Jelf]

While looking up those pictures I realized that I should add a wheel assembly page to my website.

[KBurket]

It might work better if your fellow is not locked to the table with rim bolts and the spokes and hub should be lubricated with wax or oil as mention previously. This would allow the fellow to turn with your hub. You may want to try using an additional top washer or two to keep the hub from turning.
I waxed the tenon, the shoulder of each spoke, and the hub mating surface of each spoke. A lesson I learned from Steve Jelf’s spoke press video and other posts on this forum.
Ensure you’re using the correct length spokes. Kelsey Hayes fellows use spokes that are 1/16” longer. Measuring the inner diameter of your fellow should be 20 3/4” max for non-Kelsey/Hayes wheels.

Also keep in mind that not all spokes are created equal.
I recently respoked two wheels, one with 1/2” tenons and the other with 5/8” tenons. I had to buy spokes from two different vendors and they were different lengths.

Two different lengths.

The 5/8” tenon spokes went in straight but the 1/2” spokes didn’t sit right and I cracked the shoulders on three different spokes.

Cracked shoulders.

I ended up ordering three new spokes, ensuring they were correct for my fellows, then I trimmed all of the spokes by ~1/32”.

Trimming spokes.

They were still longer than the original spokes and were a compressed fit.

New vs old spoke after trimming.

[Craig Leach]

Hi Guy's,
Starting out today I surmised that yes the spokes are to long! but not on the tenon end they are to long on the hub end. The Failed set had the
tenon end mashed from many attempts to press them that when they were finely assembled the had .030 gaps between the spokes @ the hub.
If the spokes are assembled in the fellow ( there is 12 spokes that the tenon is under sized so I can do that ) the hole were the hub goes is .145
smaller than the O.D. of the hub. I know there needs to be some pressure on the spokes but .072 pushes the spokes apart @ the hub so
shortening the spokes @ the tenon is not a solution. Jerry & John the spokes were mashed @ both the tenon & hub ends is why I assumed they
were junk. Steve I started out with no bolts but when trying to stop the spokes from turning with a large Hyd. cylinder spanner the fellow would
turn so the bolts were to stop the fellow.

I will have to resize the tenon holes on one fellow to accommodate the smaller tenons.
I now know with out a doubt why everyone says send your wheels to Stutsman.
Thanks for the help I will try to update if I get finished or at least send a pic of the bon fire.
Craig.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Interesting! Back when Stutzman would sell loose spokes, I bought a set. I don't use the Regan method to install spokes so the smaller diameter for the hub was no problem, but I did have to bore the hole before pressing in the hub. I also had to cut the big chamfer on the hole.

Your experience is a good lesson for us all to be aware of! Thanks for sharing!

[Steve Jelf]

Kelsey Hayes fellows...

Hayes and Kelsey, two separate companies, merged when Model T production ended, in 1927.

[TWrenn]

Interesting! Back when Stutzman would sell loose spokes, I bought a set. I don't use the Regan method to install spokes so the smaller diameter for the hub was no problem, but I did have to bore the hole before pressing in the hub. I also had to cut the big chamfer on the hole.

Your experience is a good lesson for us all to be aware of! Thanks for sharing!

That last sentence is a good reason why I let Noah Stutzman do mine! For the cost of spokes..and quality control (I've read where some occasionally are not so good) and the time and skill etc. it's not worth it to me anyway to be a DIY project. Just sayin.