No Spark, No Start Even After Work

Hudson29 · Post by **Hudson29** » Fri Aug 16, 2024 5:08 pm

A couple of weeks ago I posted about a problem I'm having with my T. Its a 1914 Touring with a 1918 motor that has a starter & generator. This car ALWAYS starts until a few weeks ago when I had done a bunch of work & wanted to take a test drive. None of that work had anything to do with the motor, the closest I got was installing new leather clash strips on to the hood.

The starter ground normally but no fire, not even a pop. I suspected the switch as my '23 had a lot of trouble with the switch which acted the same way. Not knowing what to do to test any of this, I took it apart. I had one of the plastic wood kits in stock and wanted to replace the old wood so it made sense to look the switch over and do everything else at the same time.

The switch turned out to be very simple and robust looking. I could see nothing wrong with it so it got a clean, with contact cleaner, reinforcement of the screw sockets with gel CA glue and some dielectric grease on the contacts & the central pivot. Thanks to Chris for these suggestions. Jerry showed me how to set my meter to verify connections so the switch was tested in all three positions. It works well.

I also added a couple of lengths of O ring to simulate the waterproof cord Ford originally installed.

The coli box kit itself is much like the old Fun Projects kit I installed on the '23 close to 20 years ago. The biggest difference being a lack of pilot holes for most of the screws. If I had this job to do over again, I would fully assemble the coil box with bottom & back paneles, coils & lid and only then run the screws.

Speaking of coils, these are the plastic ones and they had a fine copper wire jumping the points. The E-Timer requires fuses and not knowing if these might be some special type of "fuse wire" I replaced them with the proper fuses.

Paul

Hudson29 · Post by **Hudson29** » Fri Aug 16, 2024 5:10 pm

Here are some additional pictures

Hudson29 · Post by **Hudson29** » Fri Aug 16, 2024 5:30 pm

After getting everything on the coil box assembled again, the meter was used to verify connections to the switch from the MAG & BAT posts and each of the high & low tention posts to the copper contacts inside the box. All sweet.

With the box installed in the car and the coils in the box it all looked pretty good. New spark plug wires were used and routed away from other items as best as possible. They touch nothing.

I did make one modification. Seeing the E-Timer does not use the magneto, I disconnected the wire from it and ran a jumper from the MAG post to the BAT post. If I understand things correctly, this will allow the motor to start & run on either the MAG or BAT position.

Time test the work. As before, the motor ground over on the starter but no start, not even a cough. No spark at the plugs tested by the old screwdriver to the plug method. The electric lights do come on and there is more than 6v at the BAT post. I changed the E-Timer with a spare I keep in case of trouble. Same thing again, no start. Using the meter again I found no volts at one of the the terminals of the E-Timer.

Time for a beer or three and a think but sadly, I'm out of ideas. On reflection, the only thing left that is not new or reworked in the timer wiring loom. I bought one but did not install it.

The E-Timer has always been dead reliable so it is unlikely to have caused the initial trouble. I did remove the coil box cover with the switch on and might have blown the fuse but that was after the motor would not start. I read Mike's instructions too late to save this one but the second E-Timer was brand new still in its sealed bag and it was installed with the ground strap off the battery to forstall any issues.

What now? Is there something else I can check?

Paul

Post by **speedytinc** » Fri Aug 16, 2024 5:34 pm

So you have constant power @ the coil box voltage in terminal? That would be the lower right.
You have power to the coil box & the switch on bat, but the coils dont buzz when you hand crank?
Mike Kossar is the guy to talk to about the E-timer & your jumpers. Dont forget to report what voltage you run.
If the old jumpers worked, why did you change them?.
Is your power wire(yellow normally) @ the starter switch on the battery in to starter switch terminal or on the terminal that goes to your starter motor?
You say the starter cranks over the motor just fine?

Post by **speedytinc** » Fri Aug 16, 2024 5:36 pm

I think I am seeing a jumper wire on the mag & bat terminals, so if you have power there, the switch will work in either position.
Your T is in protest for leaving Orange County.

Post by **Mark Nunn** » Fri Aug 16, 2024 6:19 pm

Did you confirm that the E-timer fuse is not blown?

Hudson29 · Post by **Hudson29** » Fri Aug 16, 2024 6:25 pm

Yes, there is power at the BAT post, more than 6v. Before installing the coils in the box I was able to use the meter to check the pathway from the bottom strip through the switch to the MAG & BAT posts. It is an Orange County car and when running was very happy on the backroads of Klamath County.

Paul

Hudson29 · Post by **Hudson29** » Fri Aug 16, 2024 6:29 pm

Mark Nunn wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 16, 2024 6:19 pm
Did you confirm that the E-timer fuse is not blown?

How do I check for this? It seems unlikely that it could have caused the initial issue. I might have blown it trying to find the trouble after the car was not starting by removing the coil box lid but that was later. Blowing a fuse on the second E-Timer seems very unlikely seeing the battery was disconnected whenever any work was being performed.

Paul

Post by **SurfCityGene** » Fri Aug 16, 2024 6:34 pm

Paul, Maybe pull out a spark plug and lay it on the head so it has a ground and so you can see it when you crank the engine over with the key ON. See if you have a spark at the plug? This will let you know you are getting spark at the plug. You might be able to just disconnect a plug wire with a gap to see the spark.

I do believe it may be like Johnny said and it may have to come back down to OC.. good luck

Hudson29 · Post by **Hudson29** » Fri Aug 16, 2024 6:46 pm

I did the equivalent of this by using a screwdriver to short the plug wire to the cylinder head. Nothing on any of the four wires. Is pulling a plug as you suggest a more certain test?

I sure do miss many things about SoCal including the Orange County Model T Club where I have so many good friends and had so many good times. I just have to remember the traffic and my frustration with moving only a short distance from stop light to stop light to remember why I left.

Paul

Post by **Mark Nunn** » Fri Aug 16, 2024 6:51 pm

The E-timer requires a 4A replaceable fuse at the coil box. It is not in the timer itself. I installed the fuse under my '26 coil box at the power-in terminal.

Post by **speedytinc** » Fri Aug 16, 2024 6:58 pm

You would be more likely to miss 1 spark every 4 revolutions unless you use your fingers instead of a screwdriver.
Now thats really betting you have no spark.
Lay all 4 plugs on the head. You can easily see & possibly hear each plug spark.
What does Mike K say about a test method?

Post by **John kuehn** » Fri Aug 16, 2024 7:10 pm

Is the engine getting gas? Pull a plug and check it for gas. If you’re choking it you should have a wet plug. The picture you posted of the engine shows the gas turned off at the carburetor. I guess that is an older picture before you were having trouble with it not starting. Some times getting a T to start is some thing pretty simple. Been there and done that for sure!

Poppie · Post by **Poppie** » Fri Aug 16, 2024 11:37 pm

Paul,
2nd last photo in your first post16 Aug. What are the green thingies connected across the coil points ???... are they fuseable links or they small capacitors ??? by mistake....n

MKossor · Post by **MKossor** » Fri Aug 16, 2024 11:52 pm

Paul, I provided a detailed trouble shooting process on your previus post of 7/13. What were the results of each step in the process? Knowing those answers should promptly lead to the likely root cause.

I repeat that process here for convenience:

Here are a few troubleshooting suggestions:
With the car setup for normal engine starting (ie spark lever fully retarded, transmission in neutral, ignition power on set to battery, etc.) Slowly hand crank the engine and listen for coil point buzz while turning the crank 2 full revolutions. Each coil should buzz once after 2 crank shaft revolutions. Use caution when hand cranking engine because the engine may start even if it does not start using the starter motor.

1. If no coil buzz is heard while hand cranking the engine, check positive battery power (+6 to +12V) is present at each timer terminal using a DC voltmeter with respect to frame ground. (Be careful not to short the timer terminal to ground with the voltmeter probe or you may blow the fuse jumpers! ) If no battery power is present at any timer terminal, check battery power is present at the coil box battery terminal. If so, trouble shoot coil box power distribution. If not, trouble shoot why power is not getting to the coil box; the ignition switch is a common candidate vulnerable to contact failure. If this is the first time the car is being fitted with an E-Timer and battery power is present at the timer terminals, verify the E-Timer housing is making metal to metal contact with the mating surface on the timing cover. Newly rebuilt engines may have a fully painted timing cover that prevents the E-Timer housing from contacting engine ground. If so, remove the paint on the timing cover where it contacts the E-Timer.

2. If no coil buzz is heard during hand cranking 2 revolutions and battery power IS present at the timer terminals. The E-Timer internal fuse may be blown and will need to be returned for repair. Known causes of internal fuse blowing:
a. Metal coil box lid removed or replaced while ignition powered or operating, shorting coil points together or to ground while powered.
b. Improper routing of spark plug wires. Its good practice to route spark plug wires to remain a minimum 1" clearance from ANY other
objects between the spark plug and coil box terminal. Old, worn, dried out or cracked spark plug wire insulation can allow spark to jump to
adjacent objects such as other spark plug wires or timer wires which can damage the E-Timer. This is especially true for sharp edges of the
spark plug wire terminals. Your #2 spark plug wire looks like its sitting on or close to spark plug #3 in your first photo!

3. If each coil is verified to buzz once when slowly hand cranking the engine 2 revolutions but engine still will not start when electric starter engaged. The problem may be low voltage during electric starter cranking due to the heavy current draw by the starter motor. The engine may crank and crank and crank without a putt or without starting but does start immediately upon release of the starter switch. This is a sure sign low battery voltage during starter motor starting. Known causes of low battery voltage during starter motor cranking.
a. Weak or bad battery. Test the battery using a load tester after fully charging the battery. Replace if the battery is weak or bad. Battery
lifetime is typically 5 years or less.
b. Loose or corroded battery terminals, Starter switch terminals, starter switch contacts. Clean and tighten all battery power connections.
c. Check if battery terminals or connections get hot after starter cranking. Heat is a indicates power dissipation and subsequent voltage drop
d. Check battery ground strap is rated for battery voltage in use; 6V battery must supply twice the current compared with 12V battery to supply
the same starter power. A 12V battery ground strap installed with a 6V battery may drop too much voltage during starter cranking. The
battery ground strap should Not get warm or hot after cranking. If so, replace the ground strap with a 6V rated ground strap with good
electrical contact to the frame.

Do NOT "HOT WIRE" timer wires to ground to see if coils will Buzz! Doing so will instantly BLOW the fuse jumpers installed across the coil points requiring removal and replacement fuse jumpers.

Post by **Loftfield** » Sat Aug 17, 2024 7:54 am

Possibly another amazing example of if Henry didn't put it on the car then you don't need it. Get rid of all the "e" stuff, get a Ford timer, put back an original Ford coil box, toss the plastic coils and get some real ones. It was all so simple and so easy, originally.

mtntee20 · Post by **mtntee20** » Sat Aug 17, 2024 9:20 am

Mike's suggestions are VERY GOOD and to the point with substantiating information.

I have ONE additional comment/suggestion: Install a ground cable (equal in size to the battery ground cable) between the engine and ground (either frame OR to the same place as the battery ground cable). This will ensure good grounding between ALL of the components on the engine to battery ground.

It is often forgotten: The circuit has to be full circle. Grounding is the most overlooked and common problem, as Mike pointed out with the painted timer cover / engine components.

Post by **TWrenn** » Sat Aug 17, 2024 9:25 am

Mark Nunn wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 16, 2024 6:19 pm
Did you confirm that the E-timer fuse is not blown?

I don't have time let alone attention span to read all these (rather lengthy) posts so I'm only gonna chime in an experience I witnessed 2 years ago at a tour. Some dude's E or I timer...don't remember which and it don't matter....FAILED. Yep, failed. As good as those may be, I'll say it again...ANY electronic device eventually WILL fail! He put on his spare New Day and off he went on tour!

Just saying is all, and yeh, I'm sure Mike will come out of the corner swinging but it is what it is. Nothing is perfect and guaranteed. We all know the two things that are!!

MKossor · Post by **MKossor** » Sat Aug 17, 2024 1:17 pm

Actually, E-Timer failures are rare and I-Timer failures are even rarer.

Yes, instances of the internal fuse blowing are much more common, providing fail safe protection of external wiring faults, shorted coil faults and defective coil point faults. Such incidents are gleefully boasted as E-Timer or I-Timer FAILURES by the purests. In reality, the E-Timer and I-Timer should be credited in averting catastrophic damage or possible car fire from occurring.

One such instance was a coil point limit revit that cam loose, allowing the cushion spring point contact to always remain in electrical contact with the vivrator spring contact (ie points never opened) even when it was fully open against the coil core. The I-Timer fuse blew preventing a coil melt down and possible fire if the enging came to rest on that coil when shut off. There would be nothing limiting the coil current next time the ignition was turned on and Poof! Yep, could of just put on an original Ford mechanical timer and your back on the road and all fixed.. Right

Post by **Craig Leach** » Sat Aug 17, 2024 1:33 pm

I'm with Neil what is the purpose for the wire / fuse across the point contact? Does that stop the vibrator on the coils? Is that something done
with a E or I timer? I'm rather curios as I have a K-W elevated timer & the instructions I found said to eliminate the vibrators on the stock coils.
Do the E & I timers work the same as a K-W? If so is that why there is no mention of listening to the coils mentioned? Thanks for indulging my
ignorance.

Craig.

Post by **Mark Nunn** » Sat Aug 17, 2024 2:11 pm

Craig,
The E timer bypasses coil points with the installation of the fused jumper. The E timer fires the coil at the best time without relying on point adjustment. The photo with the solid jumper wire will work but dues not have fuse protection. I-timer is more like the mechanical timer that relies on coil point performance for best operation.

Post by **NoelChico** » Sat Aug 17, 2024 3:50 pm

Maybe it doesn't matter since he's not using his magneto, but doesn't " I disconnected the wire from it and ran a jumper from the MAG post to the BAT post" short out the magneto. Does it short out the battery?

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Sat Aug 17, 2024 3:51 pm

NoelChico wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 17, 2024 3:50 pm
Maybe it doesn't matter since he's not using his magneto, but doesn't " I disconnected the wire from it and ran a jumper from the MAG post to the BAT post" short out the magneto. Does it short out the battery?

I wondered the same thing.

Post by **Craig Leach** » Sat Aug 17, 2024 7:26 pm

I think Paul meant @ the switch so it put battery volts to the coil box / E timer with the switch in Bat or Mag position on the switch.
Mark, the K-W timer has a set of points that I believe do the same as the E timer mechanically of coarse If the points are removed & a
jumper put in the same place will the coils work with the with a E timer?
Can the E timer be removed & individually ground the wires for each cylinder ( coil ) to test the coils & voltage to the box for the coils? Thus
eliminating the E timer from the equation. If you have working coils then voltage to the E time & fuse would be the next place to look if I
understand correctly. Thanks for letting me weasel in on this, I may find the info I need for the K-W timer.
Craig.

Post by **speedytinc** » Sat Aug 17, 2024 7:28 pm

There is a jumper on the "coil box" bat & mag input terminals. Either position of the switch will provide power to the coil box.
The mag post(off the HH) is not in play.

Post by **J1MGOLDEN** » Tue Aug 20, 2024 9:21 am

That added replaced jumper wire grounds out the capacitor inside the coil that is hooked between those two set of points.

Those points have to function to make a square wave that is kind of shaped by the capacitor to make it look like an AC Voltage.

A DC Voltage cannot be passed through the coils to increase the spark plug voltage to about a little more than 2,500 volts.

That increase requires an AC Voltage.

Your coil can operate for a short time with the capacitor clipped out of the circuit, you will see ore sparks across the points and they will soon weld themselves together.

Hudson29 · Post by **Hudson29** » Tue Aug 20, 2024 6:11 pm

Mark Nunn wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 16, 2024 6:51 pm
The E-timer requires a 4A replaceable fuse at the coil box. It is not in the timer itself. I installed the fuse under my '26 coil box at the power-in terminal.

I did not do the installation on this E-Timer and have no idea if the previous owner installed such a fuse. I'm not even sure where to look for it with this hybrid wiring system. It would have to be between the battery & the coil box someplace? I remember putting one in under the floor bords in the '23 but that had a different electrical setup.

Thanks Speedy T, I will do the spark plugs on top of the head test as you suggest. I was going to replace them anyway with a new set of Champion Xs that I squirrelled away some years ago.

Yes, John K, the gas was on during the attempted start.

Remember this car ran fine just a couple of weeks before. I did a lot of work on it but nothing under the hood or with any electrical bits.

Paul

Hudson29 · Post by **Hudson29** » Tue Aug 20, 2024 6:35 pm

Thanks Mike fior your trouble shooting tips:

"With the car setup for normal engine starting (ie spark lever fully retarded, transmission in neutral, ignition power on set to battery, etc.) Slowly hand crank the engine and listen for coil point buzz while turning the crank 2 full revolutions. Each coil should buzz once after 2 crank shaft revolutions. Use caution when hand cranking engine because the engine may start even if it does not start using the starter motor.

1. If no coil buzz is heard while hand cranking the engine, check positive battery power (+6 to +12V) is present at each timer terminal using a DC voltmeter with respect to frame ground. (Be careful not to short the timer terminal to ground with the voltmeter probe or you may blow the fuse jumpers! ) If no battery power is present at any timer terminal, check battery power is present at the coil box battery terminal. If so, trouble shoot coil box power distribution. If not, trouble shoot why power is not getting to the coil box; the ignition switch is a common candidate vulnerable to contact failure."

This first step turned out to be difficult for me. I have never heard any coil buzz or keening or any other noise from the coils in this car. I tried the test with the switch on and the battery connected. Nothing. I disconnected the battery and pulled the coil box lid hoping to see something visually. Nothing. That I can't hear it is hardly surprising to me. My hearing has been getting worse these last thirty years and I now can't even hear the coils on the '23 (I just tried it) anymore. I used to hear a keening sound with that car that closely mimics the permanent keening in my ears.

Yes, there was more that 6v at the BAT post when connected with the meter to the exhaust manifold. That should demonstrate the ground is good even if I didn't already know that by hearing the starter operate. With the meter set to volts I saw NO reading at the timer terminal. I only tried one. I notice you suggest testing all four. I will do so next work session when I pull the plugs and verify no spark.

After that, I really can only think of one more thing to do and that would be to use the meter to make sure the timer wires are good. What else?

Paul, head scrathin

Post by **NoelChico** » Tue Aug 20, 2024 10:51 pm

I think I heard of a permanent magnet on one of the early I-timers glue failing and the magnet falling off. If not noticed when removing the timer, would this have caused the issues? Just a wild thought.

MKossor · Post by **MKossor** » Tue Aug 20, 2024 11:24 pm

Paul,

You heard no coils buzzing on trouble shooting step 1: (Slowly hand cranking the engine with battery ignition power on, spark retarded)

Then you stated: "I disconnected the battery and pulled the coil box lid hoping to see something visually."

Then you went onto trouble shooting step 2: (check positive battery power (+6 to +12V) is present at each timer terminal using a DC voltmeter with respect to engine/frame ground.) You reported: "With the meter set to volts I saw NO reading at the timer terminal. I only tried one."

Question: Did you re-connect the battery terminal Before measuring the Timer terminal voltage? If yes, did you measure the timer terminal voltage correctly? (With volt meter set to DC volts, 0-20V range or auto range, Black (Com) probe in good bare metal contact with engine ground and Red (V) probe in good contact with the timer terminal. Ignition switch ON set to Battery)

Do not bother to pull the plugs to see if they are sparking if there is no Battery power present on any of the timer terminals with the ignition switch ON set to battery power. Battery power MUST be present on each of the timer terminals for the respective coil to operate and generate spark. If NO battery power is present on any of the timer terminals with ignition switch ON, use the volt meter to check if you have battery power present at the coil box battery terminal (Red V) probe with respect to engine ground (Black com) probe.

MKossor · Post by **MKossor** » Tue Aug 20, 2024 11:49 pm

NoelChico wrote: ↑
Tue Aug 20, 2024 10:51 pm
I think I heard of a permanent magnet on one of the early I-timers glue failing and the magnet falling off. If not noticed when removing the timer, would this have caused the issues? Just a wild thought.

Engine overheating can be problematic to several engine components.

If battery power is present at the E-Timer (or I-Timer) terminals with respect to engine ground and no spark is generated at the spark plugs, the internal E-Timer (or I-Timer) fuse has likely blown to provide fail safe protection of an external electrical fault.

Hudson29 · Post by **Hudson29** » Wed Aug 21, 2024 2:59 pm

Thanks Mike, sorry for the confusion, I got in a hurry telling the story. The battery was disconnected only to remove the coil box lid. It was reconnected to try the voltage at the timer terminals. I did not pay attention to which lead was grounded. I will run this test again with the black lead grounded and do all for terminals, battery connected & switch ON.

Just a reminder - This car came with an E-Timer. When it would not start, I removed the coil box lid with the switch on. I had some silly notion about jiggling the coils into better contact. After I read Mike's troubleshooting instructions I see that this was not a good idea.

After that, I switched the original E-Timer out with a new one that was still in its packaging. I really expected that with all of the work done on the coil box & switch and all the pathways checked with the meter that the car would start as it always had. I'm baffled as to why this problem continues after all of this work. There must be a fault someplace I have not considered. E-Timers have been dead reliable in the experience of the many folks I know who have used them including my own. The chances of two failing within a few weeks on one motor seem pretty long.

Paul

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Wed Aug 21, 2024 3:41 pm

Hudson29 wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 21, 2024 2:59 pm
The chances of two failing within a few weeks on one motor seem pretty long.

Paul

Right. There would be little chance of both units failing, if a failed E-Timer were the sole cause of failure. However, if something in the car's wiring, or ???, caused the first timer to fail, it would most likely cause the second one to fail as well, if said problem had not been diagnosed and corrected. It seems as if at least one of those timers should go back to Mike K. to check for the blown internal resistor he refers to.

Post by **TRDxB2** » Wed Aug 21, 2024 4:52 pm

Was looking at the wiring to the coil box and was wondering what all the wires are for. One from the battery, one a jumper from MAG and the other two? Also the #1 has a dark outer spot form ? and th end of #2 looks frayed

--
--
When ever there are electrical issues I prefer to break the circuit into isolated segments and test them individually for CONTINUITY. Then connect them together one by one and test as I go for CONTINUITY. Realize you will get a negative voltage reading for a bad wire connection or a good wire depending on the cause.
I would pull the coil units out of the coil box and then test for CONTINUITY. no need to take things apart
1. for each spark plug from its coil box post to the plug's cap. Validates good wire connection
2. for each timer wire from the screw head to its corresponding post on the coil box. Validates good wire connection
3. for each position on the switch from the bottom contact plate in the coil box to the BAT post. Validates good wire connection

Daisy Mae · Post by **Daisy Mae** » Wed Aug 21, 2024 5:20 pm

First thing to do is to immediately remove the jumper between the mag and battery post. It has absolutely no purpose, and worse, the minute you hook up a battery to your car you're destroying your mag/magnets. Given I don't see a lead from the mag to the coilbox mag post, I imagine the car is run just on battery, where the jumper enables the car to run regardless of switch setting ( no purpose)?

Post by **speedytinc** » Wed Aug 21, 2024 5:23 pm

Daisy Mae wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 21, 2024 5:20 pm
First thing to do is to immediately remove the jumper between the mag and battery post. It has absolutely no purpose, and worse, the minute you hook up a battery to your car you're destroying your mag/magnets.

There are no magnets or magneto. The jumper allows the ignition switch to work in both positions.
Its not an issue.

Post by **TRDxB2** » Wed Aug 21, 2024 5:27 pm

Daisy Mae wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 21, 2024 5:20 pm
First thing to do is to immediately remove the jumper between the mag and battery post. It has absolutely no purpose, and worse, the minute you hook up a battery to your car you're destroying your mag/magnets.

Here is what he said from above "I did make one modification. Seeing the E-Timer does not use the magneto, I disconnected the wire from it and ran a jumper from the MAG post to the BAT post. If I understand things correctly, this will allow the motor to start & run on either the MAG or BAT position." So there is no connection to the magneto. BUT while it is not a problem, why have the option and confuse solutions.

Daisy Mae · Post by **Daisy Mae** » Wed Aug 21, 2024 5:29 pm

Sorry, I hadn't read all the particulars of your post and was just reacting to the pic with a big gulp....
Apologies for jumping the gun...

Hudson29 · Post by **Hudson29** » Wed Aug 21, 2024 5:59 pm

This is a hybrid car. It is basically a 1914 and would, if I understand it correctly have had no wires on the BAT post. It makes me curious why Ford spent the money to install one?

Someone later installed a 1918 engine with starter & generator. Also the lights were electrified at some point. So now the BAT post has a wire coming from the battery, another coming from the cutout and a third going to the electric light switch. I just added a jumper wire to the MAG post to allow the motor to run in either the BAT or MAG position. The magneto wire has been removed.

Speedy T identified the internal parts of the headlights as later T buckets squeezed into the old brass bezels. It might be a fun job to replace the bulbs. The switch was not working very well and I replaced it with a repop '15 switch which fit the mounting holes perfectly. Whoever originally electrified this car may well have just used later Ford parts.

Paul

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Wed Aug 21, 2024 6:04 pm

That's a neat trick with the lights!

...if I understand it correctly have had no wires on the BAT post. It makes me curious why Ford spent the money to install one?

Your car would have had a battery connection originally. The battery would be be for starting purposes only. Once started, you would have switched over to Mag. The battery was normally a 6V dry cell, sometimes called a "hot shot" battery.

Hudson29 · Post by **Hudson29** » Wed Aug 21, 2024 6:10 pm

Thanks Jerry, that makes sense but it was not shown in the wiring diagram. Did they come from the factory with the Hot Shot battery? Where was it located?

Paul

Post by **John kuehn** » Wed Aug 21, 2024 7:54 pm

It could be that TRBxB2 is on to something.
Those two wires in the close up got hot or shorted for a reason so what is the reason.
The spark plug wire that’s laying directly on the burnt wire just isn’t good. Are you sure the burnt wires haven’t burned up internally under the remains of the insulation? Until you figure out what exactly goes where and the reason for it is the mystery. If the car was running well before it stopped something shorted out. Maybe the burnt wires in the picture?
But I guess that’s the question.

MKossor · Post by **MKossor** » Thu Aug 22, 2024 9:15 am

The spark plug wire that’s laying directly on the burnt wire just isn’t good.

NOTHING should be within 1" of the coil box spark plug wire terminals, spark plug wires or spark plug terminals.

High voltage (10kV - 20kV) from the coil will always take the path of least resistance. Old, warn, or dried out wire insulation does not provide adequate isolation! Engine miss is very likely and and damage to the E-Timer or I-Timer is also possible.

Take the time to inspect your ignition wiring and route the wires properly if necessary. You may just rid yourself of that elusive and annoying engine miss.

Hudson29 · Post by **Hudson29** » Thu Aug 22, 2024 6:23 pm

Thank you all for your help with trying to solve this mystery. I know how to check voltage & continuity now and will run checks of the things suggested here. Further, I'll see what I can do to clean up the wiring. This may end up being a bigger project than I had in mind but a complete rewire was on the list for down the road someday. I like to keep projects small & simple so they don't seem overwhelming and get put off waiting for that someday to come along. In this case we have a dead car that was not dead a few weeks ago. Surely that has to be something simple once it is discovered.

I'll report back next week about the latest developments.

Paul

Hudson29 · Post by **Hudson29** » Tue Aug 27, 2024 12:38 pm

I did some work over the weekend to try to solve this ignition issue. Previously, the coil box was removed and "rewooded" with one of the plastic kits. All electric pathways were verified with the meter and found to work fine. The switch came apart and was cleaned and lubed. Once again the pathways were checked with the switch in three positions. it was asembled to the coil box and checked again, all sweet.

This weekend the hood former (is that the right word?) was removed from the firewall and the ancient commutator wiring harness was removed and replaced by a new one that was supposed to be the one correct for the year. In 1914 there were no lights or generator so there were extra wires installed to run these later additions. These wires were newer but I replaced them all anyway with new cloth covered modern wires of 14 gauge.

Once the new commutator harness was installed it was time to test the ignition. The headlight wires were not finished but that should not have mattered for the ignition test.

I started by testing the little green fuses on the coils, all OK. Next was the hand crank test with the battery connected and the switch ON. No sound That I could hear from the coils. Next the voltage was checked at the BAT post, 6.5 v. After that, the voltage was checked at the timer terminals - nothing. Then I checked voltage at the four posts where the commutator wires connected with the coil box nothing. Last, I tried to start the car. As before, totally dead.

So - now its all new, all correct as far as I can tell and still will not start. All of this was with the second E-Timer which should have been good as it was brand new still in its packaging. Could it have been killed by something I did? I sure don't see how as ALL work was done with the battery disconnected. I was very careful not to short the terminals to ground at any point or to mess with the coil box lid.

What next? I outta moves at this point.

BTW, I used John Ragan's helpful little drawing in the Club Electrical System book to make sure I wired the timer and posts correctly.

Paul, baffled

Post by **speedytinc** » Tue Aug 27, 2024 1:16 pm

Did you faithfully & accurately follow Mike Kossor's testing instructions?
Assuming the new unit install will fix the problem is a leap of blind faith.

Looking @ your wiring, You have no power going to your coil box unless you turn on the light switch. ????
You should read constant voltage on your lower coil box input posts.

Hudson29 · Post by **Hudson29** » Tue Aug 27, 2024 1:27 pm

As far as I can see, the light switch has nothing to do with the ignition in this circuit. Power comes in from the battery to the BAT post. From there it goes inside the coil box to the switch to be connected to the bottom common copper strips that power the coils. Have I got that right? What am I missing? I could try turning on the lights to see if the timer terminals get power but I sure don't see how that would make any difference.

I detailed in my last post about the testing procedure and the results. Did I miss anything?

Paul

Post by **speedytinc** » Tue Aug 27, 2024 1:38 pm

Yea try turning on the light switch.
I see a yellow wire from your coil box to a light switch terminal. I see no direct power.
I see other wires on the other switch terminal. I presume that's battery voltage. Get out that voltmeter.
If you are correct, you would read continuous battery voltage on those lower posts with the battery hooked up.

As far as your E-timer diagnostics, I have ZERO experience.
Normal diagnostics that I would use would damage it, I am told.
Do exactly as Mike K. says. It should have been clear if the timer is working or has power or not.

There is no thumb nut securing the wiring on the bat terminal.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Tue Aug 27, 2024 2:05 pm

Where in this photo are you measuring 6.5V battery power??

Unless I'm mistaken in what I'm seeing...
The two terminals marked "P" should be delivering power to the coil box.
"L.S." would be your light switch
The two "L" wires would be your headlamp wires.

Where is "B", your battery lead??? There appears to be no power going to the P terminals, or the headlamps for that matter.

Post by **speedytinc** » Tue Aug 27, 2024 2:17 pm

Is the battery power @ that hanging burnt red wire that isnt hooked to anything?
If its hot, it goes onto the yellow wire light switch terminal or the Bat coil box terminal.

Hudson29 · Post by **Hudson29** » Tue Aug 27, 2024 2:22 pm

I am terribly sorry for the confusion I caused by including a picture of the firewall that was NOT taken with the wiring in test configuration. I included this picture as well as the other three for the sole purpose of checking that I had the commutator wiring installed correctly. I should have stated this.

In fact, both the power lead from the battery & the cut out lead were installed on the BAT post for the test. I relied on others being able to read my mind . . .

More work was done after the test on the rest of the wiring. By the time its done all wiring forward of the firewall will be new.

For clarity the battery lead was on the BAT post as was the cut out lead & the light wire. That BAT post gave me a reading on the meter of 6+v.

As far as I can make out, I did follow Mike's instructions and included a list of the tests and results. My poor hearing may have negated the first one which included listening for the keening of the coils while spinning the hand crank. That keening, if it been there, sadly matches pretty closely the permanent keening in my ears. Years ago, I could hear that noise in the '23 but I have not been able to hear that sound in a long time.

Paul

Post by **John kuehn** » Tue Aug 27, 2024 4:44 pm

Sounds like you back to where you started from. No fire getting to the coils as it was to begin with. I know nothing about an I Timer and don’t use them. It sounds like to me it isn’t a timer issue at all but something shorted out or not getting a ground to the coils or timer. In the initial post you mentioned the engine was running and starting well and then nothing. In a T with a standard timer and coils that’s a switch issue most of the time. Next step would be a loose or shorted wire around the coil box. This has to be something simple that’s being overlooked. I have the original wood coils in my three T’s and no jumper wire to the points. Is that necessary for an I Timer? Maybe I missed it in the other posts if it’s needed.

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Tue Aug 27, 2024 5:15 pm

I'm not going back and rereading the entire discussion, but scanning down the page I see spark plugs mentioned. Laying them out on top of the engine and watching them while you pull the crank will tell you that high voltage from the coils is reaching them. It will NOT tell you whether they are any good. For that they will need to be tested under compression in a spark plug tester. Chances are they are fine. But until you see them fire in a tester you won't know for sure.

I suspect your problem lies somewhere in how things are wired, such as a wire connected where it shouldn't be or disconnected from a place where it should be. I'm guessing that you have a wiring diagram for a starter car. Let's remove that complication/distraction/red herring. I'll post a diagram showing the basic ignition system, and not the post-1919 extras. Remove (disconnect) anything not included in this diagram. That is the basic system at its simplest. If you follow it in detail you should have your ignition system good enough to start and run the engine.

The diagram omits the wire bringing current to the battery post. You will want to install a wire from the battery there.

Your car would have had a battery connection originally. The battery would be be for starting purposes only. Once started, you would have switched over to Mag. The battery was normally a 6V dry cell, sometimes called a "hot shot" battery.

The "hot shot", often a telephone battery, was usually located in any convenient place a wire would reach (under a seat, on the running board etc.). They were very cheap. Today they're expensive. You will do better with a car battery from the local farm supply.

Hudson29 · Post by **Hudson29** » Tue Aug 27, 2024 6:40 pm

Thank you all so much for your help. As you can tell, I'm out of my depth with electrical matters even though I am learning pretty quickly. I just had a long phone call from an old pal in the Orange County Club who is an electrical sort. He went over some troubleshooting basics and as some of you have pointed out, the confusion I caused by posting that picture of the firewall with the wires all ahoo because I had moved on to other electrical work. The pictures below ARE representative of the way it was during the test.

The wire coming over from the starter area that is red but turned black by the time it hits the BAT post is the hot wire from the battery. That battery is fully charged and spins the motor over normally for a 6v Model T. There is 6v+ at that BAT post.

The bright red wire on the BAT post goes to the cutout, it is new.

The yellow wire from the BAT post goes to the hot side of the light switch. It is also new and will have a left headlight and tail light wire added to the bottom terminal of the light switch to go with the right headlight wire already there.

The green jumper just allows the switch to be used in either battery or magneto position. The magneto is of unknown quality and cannot be used with the E-Timer.

Paul

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Tue Aug 27, 2024 7:11 pm

For those who want their cars 100% correct, these are what you need.

Hudson29 · Post by **Hudson29** » Tue Aug 27, 2024 7:16 pm

I remember those batteries well. I used them to heat the glow plug on model airplane engines.

Ford put the BAT terminal on the coil box as this was commonly used by owners but did not equip the cars with the battery or a location to hold it? That seems a bit odd . . .

Paul

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Tue Aug 27, 2024 10:02 pm

That seems a bit odd . . .

Henry was of two minds. He designed the T easy to start by hand, and left it to the customer to keep it that way. But he was realistic enough to realize that some customers would want to make it easier by adding a battery. So he made the switch to work on MAG or BAT. Ever eager to keep prices down, he left it up to the customers to add their own batteries if they wanted. In the tenth year of T production, always among the last to be first, he added an electric starter, a generator, and a battery. In 1909 much of the population was used to getting along on their own. By 1919 so many people had left the farm and moved into town that we were getting soft, and would happily pay extra to indulge in the in the decadence of electric start.

Post by **DHort** » Tue Aug 27, 2024 10:42 pm

: wiringnonstartermodel.jpg (35.89 KiB) Viewed 7997 times

I believe this wiring diagram is close to correct.

I would install a junction box like Ford did originally. Remove the extra wires on the coil box, and wire your car
up correctly. Only install the wires needed to get the car to run. Forget about the lights for now. You can wire
them in later. Disconnect the wire from the magneto so it is not damaged and try to start it on battery.

Unfortunately you seem to be running in circles and getting nowhere.

Good luck.