Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

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TonyB
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Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by TonyB » Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:26 pm

Many of you have been following my adventures restoring the 1909 Touring. Well this last week I have been trying to get it started.
Way back in 2017 after the motor was rebuilt I did actually use a later flywheel and hogs head and had the engine running. Not for long but it seemed ok.
Now after all the bodywork and other items are completed, time to crank the motor. It was very very stiff. After a few false efforts, mainly the timing being off 180 degrees we towed it and in less than 100 yards it was running.
1909 transmission
1909 transmission
After the usual mixture and timing adjustments it seemed to run well. However after I stalled it in reverse, we still couldn’t crank it. So we towed it again and I drive it home to the barn where it stalled again in low band.
So the motor runs but there is still lots of friction. I decided the transmission is faulty. So I removed the hogs head, all three bands and the three clutch adjustment screws. Now the engine rotated fairly well but when I turn the rear wheels all three drums rotate. They rotate a different speeds.
This seems wrong to me. I would expect the brake drum to rotate but surely the other two should be stationary. When I hold either reverse or low drum, the back wheel lock up.
Any idea what’s wrong with my transmission?
Tony Bowker
Ramona, California
1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Kerry » Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:14 pm

Not wrong, turning the rear wheel drives the brake drum drive plate so all drums will rotate through the triple gears and slip at the clutch plates.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Kerry » Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:22 pm

After blowing up your photo I see your problem, the clutch fingers are not adjusted correctly, the cotter pins are missing and the screws are backed out. The clutch is dragging so you can't crank.

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by TonyB » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:02 pm

Kerry
I mentioned in the text that I removed the screws so there was no pressure on the clutch plates. With the screws in place I couldn’t turn the rear wheels.
Tony Bowker
Ramona, California
1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by CudaMan » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:42 pm

Could it be a mismatch between early and late parts that has taken up all of the play between the clutch and brake drums? I seem to recall that early transmissions had a different shim pack than the later ones.

https://www.modeltford.com/item/3320BW.aspx
Last edited by CudaMan on Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Nv Bob » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:48 pm

Tony simular issue with current motor
Taken tranny apart to the clutch drums spin free and correct drum will turn if spinning the rearwheels or crand
Only thing i see is my clutch plates are hanging up on the
Shoes of the brake drum
So looks like i have new brake drum in my future.
Only thing i notice on my trans is clutch fingers screws
are out pretty far from other trannies i put together
I have in the past left two clutch dics out 23 not 25 worked just fine


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Nv Bob » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:56 pm

Mark yes there is
Early uses a brass trust pkate no longer availible
Later uses threee steel thrust dics
Also difference in clutch baskets
I'm not sure but ive seen difference in the push rings 1/16 or about thickness of a clutch dics
I would suspect miss match parts getting my common

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by TonyB » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:05 pm

I was wrong in thinking only the brake drum should turn, after reading the MTFCA transmission book they are operating correctly.
So either the bands were hanging, or the Clutch was not releasing. Being an early hogs head with the small square hole it’s tough to see and measure. Also I guess the plates could be hanging.
I’ll put the hogs head back on with no bands and no screws. So there should be no pressure on the clutch and no band friction
I rather suspect the clutch plates are catching☹️☹️
Tony Bowker
Ramona, California
1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by John iaccino » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:23 pm

Possibly when the engine was rebuilt the tolerances were too tight. If it were me I would add some extra oil and run it in for a few hours. Might be all it needs.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:25 pm

Tony

with those 3 screws released, your high speed clutch is fully engaged. Any cranking you do will be fully transmitted to the rear wheels.

with the hog's head off as it is, I believe you ought to lift the rear end or at least one side, and crank the engine (with ignition off!). If it is AS stiff as it was before, then you just have a tight engine
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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Kerry » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:41 pm

Sorry Tony, missed that you backed off the screws, as posted, the early clutch packs had a thick spacer to stop the first clutch plate from slipping inbetween the drum and clutch hub, could be hanging up on that.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Adam » Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:22 am

Scott_Conger wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:25 pm
Tony

with those 3 screws released, your high speed clutch is fully engaged.

Are you sure about that???

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by TonyB » Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:55 am

I believe that with the screws removed there is no pressure on the clutch plates and then the plates are free to rotate.
I know that when the clutch slips, the solution is to tighten the screws clockwise. Therefore taking the screws out (counter clockwise) will remove all pressure.
Tony Bowker
Ramona, California
1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by TonyB » Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:01 pm

After thinking about it overnite I believe there are at least three possible sources of friction:

1 the clutch plates are catching on grooves in the brake drum

2 for various reasons I used demountable bands even though they cannot be removed thru the inspection hole in the hogs head. These bands are thicker than the non demountable bands and they may be trapped between the hogs head and the drum

3 the early drum notches do not reach the very full length of the brake drum so the first plate is extra thick. I cannot remember what I installed. If I used regular disks, they will get trapped and cause excessive friction.
Tony Bowker
Ramona, California
1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.

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Call KD

Post by FreighTer Jim » Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:20 pm

Tony,

Call KD ( Kim Dobbins ).

If you don’t have his cell number
you can call or text me @ 260-804-6695.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:34 pm

Adam:

NO

what on earth was I thinking?? :o
At least give me credit for being REALLY wrong, when I'm wrong!
I have no idea where that came from. ;)

TonyB

you are, of course, absolutely right.
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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:46 pm

That 09-16 spacer that looks like an extra thick clutch disk (part #3330) can become jammed between the brake drum and the clutch drum if the face of the brake drum is sufficiently worn. In my case that put the car in permanent high gear. Maybe it's possible for the spacer to jam partially, allowing the clutch to turn with drag. My temporary solution was to spot weld an extra clutch disk to the spacer, making it too thick to jam between the two drums. Later I installed a better brake drum.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by old_charley » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:59 am

A few years ago I worked on a friends newly acquired '13 chassis that he purchased with a "rebuilt" engine and transmission. The engine was so tight that standing on the crank would barely turn the engine over. I found the problem to be that the genius that replaced the pedal cams on the aluminum hogshead installed the bolts from the outside with the castle nuts on the inside. With the hogshead installed the castle nuts pushed down on the bands so hard that it prevented the engine from turning over. Tony, I know you've been playing with Ts for years and the possibility is quite remote but could it be that that is the trouble?

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by TonyB » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:34 pm

I just checked the three bolts. The thin heads are all on the inside.
Three cam bolts
Three cam bolts
Thanks for the idea.
Tony Bowker
Ramona, California
1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:43 pm

If you still have the bands out, and the engine/transmission is still in the car, with rear wheels jacked up, how does it turn? If still tight it is the engine, 4th main or the differential which is causing the bind. If it turns easily in high gear all drums should move at the same speed. I would suspect the problem could be the clutch or a dragging band. it also could possibly be one or more tight bushings either in triple gears or the hubs inside the gears.
I have been very reluctant to offer any suggestions because I am not familiar with the very old models. The oldest one I have worked on is a 14.
I wish you well in your endeavor to find and correct this problem.
Norm


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Nv Bob » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:36 pm

Tony another thing check how thick are the bands
What type bands
Had a guy put in set of bands .030 thicker then other set i had and after we swap them car cranked easier
With the bands out how does it crank?
Could be bands, clutch dics drag/ hangup, miss aligned pan


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Joe Bell » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:46 am

I had one that with the removable ears on the bands made the engine drag done on an early engine, went to non removable bands and it started and ran fine, there was to much interferance between early hogshead and ears.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Altair » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:59 pm

The only way to separate the engine/transmission from the drive shaft/differential is to compress the clutch spring. With the spring compressed the drums will still turn, the second drum will turn at a different speed than the others but it will be disconnected from the engine. The fingers will have nothing to do with releasing the clutch, the only way to release the clutch is to compress the spring. Therefore try to crank with clutch spring compressed, it doesn't matter if the wheels are on the ground or not.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Adam » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:09 am

Altair wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:59 pm
The fingers will have nothing to do with releasing the clutch, the only way to release the clutch is to compress the spring. Therefore try to crank with clutch spring compressed, it doesn't matter if the wheels are on the ground or not.
I disagree. The adjusting screws in the fingers contact and push on the 3 dowel pins of the clutch push ring. The ends of the dowel pins should be flush with the outside of the driving plate. When you remove the 3 adjusting screws, there is nothing to push on the push ring and therefore the clutch is fully released even though the spring is not compressed...

There is only one way that it couldn’t be released with the adjusting screws removed and that would be extremely unusual cases of very worn out transmission parts and/or incorrectly built transmissions with very worn out parts in which the dowel pins may stick too far out of the driving plate, with the holes in the driving plate worn oversize too, and may still contact the adjusting arms even with the adjusting screws removed. I don’t believe this is a factor with Tony’s transmission. It is in neutral with the screws removed.
Last edited by Adam on Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by TonyB » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:12 am

David
Sorry to disagree but the pressure from the spring is transferred to the clutch plates thru the three screws in the fingers. With the screws removed, the clutch is free. I have done that and the clutch is now free.
Tony Bowker
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1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by 2nighthawks » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:33 pm

Tony - reading this whole thread reminds me of a problem our club had last year when we had a work party to replace bends in a club members Model T. Took us several Saturdays to figure out why the engine could not be hand cranked when everything was put back together. Long story short, it was finally discovered that the hogshead was interfering with one of the bands at one point when hogshead screws were tightened up snug. Discovered that replacing the original bands with removable ear bands as we had done had caused the hogshead to interfere with one of the removable ear bands because those bands are a bit thicker at one point than the original non-removable ear bands. Engine could be hand cranked when hogshead bolts were loosened a bit, but engine locked up tight when hogshead bolts were tightened up a bit. Was an easy "fix" when we figured it out!


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by 2nighthawks » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:39 pm

Tony - All that to say that I believe your number 2 solution in your 10:01 post of Feb. 9th will solve the problem, Hope this helps,.....harold


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by 2nighthawks » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:53 pm

Joe Bell - My apologies! In re-readong this thread, it seems that you mentioned the same thing that may be causing Tonys problem in a lot fewer words than I did! Sorry,.....harold


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Altair » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:03 pm

DSC04089.JPG
DSC04089.JPG
What am I missing here, if I compress the spring the clutch will disengage, if I release the spring the clutch will engage, if I remove the finger screws the clutch remains engaged. The only way this transmission will disengage is when I compress the spring. What am I missing?
( I don't know why the first photo is duplicated.)
Attachments
DSC04091.JPG

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by TonyB » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:14 am

David
The clutch plates engage when compressed.
The spring does the compression
The spring force is transmitted from the spring to the inner points of the three arms.
This force then goes through the three screws to the inner ring.
The inner ring compresses the clutch plates.
If we remove the screws, the force of the spring presses on the outside of the backing plate and does not reach the clutch plates.
Tony Bowker
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1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Adam » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:29 am

David, I looked closely at your photos and it appears that the 3 dowel pins on your clutch push ring that come thru the driving plate cover are sticking out a bit too far. Normally, on most Model T’s, when you remove the 3 adjustment screws, the ends of the arms will bottom out on the flange of the driving plate shaft and there will be slight clearance between the arms and the push ring dowel pins, thus fully releasing the clutch. This is not happening on your transmission. It may or may not be something that requires repair. I can think of few reasons this could be occurring, but in most cases if your transmission is running and driving okay there probably isn’t anything that would really require immediate repair.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Altair » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:44 am

This transmission was assembled with 13 small thrust plates and 13 large thrust plates plus a distance plate as per the 1915 parts book. I know some later units have only 12 small, 13 large and no distance plate. With one less small clutch plate and no distance plate would allow a greater distance for the fingers to travel and would probably allow the clearance you are talking about. This 1915 transmission is an original and is assembled as per the 1915 parts manual. I had a lengthily discussion with a reputable transmission re-builder as to the number of plates in a 1915 transmission and he was of the opinion that it had 13 large and 12 small and no distance plate as this was the way he had always assembled them. I brought his attention to the 1915 parts book and he was not aware that it was 13,13 and a distance plate. I went to a swap meet at Bakersfield and a vendor was selling transmission parts by the 5 gallon pails full and there was a pail full of clutch discs I asked the vendor if he had a distance plate for a 15 and transmission and he had never heard of the part. I started digging through the 500-600 discs and fortunately I found the only distance plate he had, and he said he had never seen one.

I saw some photos of a newly assembled 1915 transmission and when assembled the tops of the finger adjusting screws were near the bottom of the slots therefore only allowing about one turn of residual adjustment. This appeared somewhat incorrect to me, I contacted the assembler and questioned the assembly and I was informed that he had been doing this for 40 years and he was sure it was correct.
I further persevered with my inquirey to his frustration until he examined a non molested transmission and found it to have 13 small, 13 large and a distance plate with the adjustment screws well above the tops of the fingers.
With this configuration the only way to release the clutch pressure is to compress the spring. With the 12 - 13 disc arrangement less the distance plate I would agree that removing the adjusting screws would release the pressure on the discs. I have a 1926 transmission and there is no pressure on the discs when the adjusting screws are relaxed, however not so on the 15.

In Chaffins parts book it shows part nos 3328/29 clutch disc set, original, steel (09 27) (25 piece).
They are not the same from 09 - 27 and there is no mention of the distance plate, part no. (3330) and there are 27 pieces up to about 1917 and 25 pieces in later units.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Kerry » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:25 pm

Also when mixing year parts you can still end up with a clutch dragging with the fingers backed off, there are 2 sizes in the pins on the pressure ring and 2 hole sizes in the drive plate. They don't play well together if mixed wrong.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by 2nighthawks » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:00 pm

Back to the original problem,....car ran and drove fine once started by towing, but still very stiff and hard to hand crank. I still think that all this discussion about clutch fingers, clutch finger adjusting screws, clutch spring,....blah, blah, blah.....I think this is all "besides the point" of the original problem.

I think when the hogshead bolts are tightened up and the the hogshead is snugged down properly in place, something inside the hogshead is bearing on one of those THICKER removable ear bands. I think that merely loosening all of the hogshead bolts, or screws or whatever they're properly called will then allow the engine to be easily hand cranked. Of course it sounds like the transmission is all apart again now, but I think that putting it back together with the same THICKER removable ear bands will again result in the hogshead interfering with one of the bands will cause stiff hand cranking, or even locking up the whole engine/transmission. Loosening the hogshead mounting bolts will then allow freeing up everything for normal easier hand cranking,.....a very easy TEST to determine if the hogshead is indeed pressing on one of the bands and is indeed, causing the problem; so just loosen all the hogshead mounting bolts and try it and see if this does indeed free everything up! Or, I also believe that putting the transmission back together with the ORIGINAL non-removable ear bands will then prevent the hogshead interfering with one of the bands and thus locking things up.

Re-reading this thread will show at least two instances (one instance of which I mentioned) where this problem with installing removable ear bands in certain hogshead designs has caused interference with one of the bands.

Anyway, this simple test might reveal a simple problem and an easy fix,....in which case, just use ORIGINAL non-removable ear bands,......FWIW,......harold


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Adam » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:26 pm

I phoned Tony a few days ago and it definitely sounds like a transmission issue. If it isn’t band interference, then it is an issue with the clutch plates (number and/or thickness and/or style and/or disc drum and spacers). The trans parts may be original’09 or at the outside ‘13 or earlier. If it isn’t one of those simple things, my next guess is that it may be a fractured driven gear sleeve. That is more of a “usual” problem on ‘26-‘27’s, but not unheard of on earlier cars. My impression is that Tony is a good T mechanic. I’m sure he will post here when he finds the issue. Should be interesting.

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by TonyB » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:08 pm

In describing the problem to some friends we found this picture of the brake drum of the 09 during assembly.
09 brake drum lugs
09 brake drum lugs
As you can see the lugs are in excellent condition so the plates are not hanging on them. However the lugs do not reach the back of the drum so it does require the thick drum. I honestly cannot remember if I did indeed use a thick plate........
Tony Bowker
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1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Kerry » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:44 pm

Looks like the spacer in the top left corner of your photo, so it must have had your attention at some stage.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by jab35 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:07 am

The lugs appear to have been filed, maybe more than once, do the the plates still bear equally against all six lugs? It's tricky to hand file these to exactly match the plates. Not a criticism of your work, just something to consider, best, jb

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:02 am

If the #3330 spacer is missing, that will let disks jam between the drums. That would be my second guess, after thick bands being compressed by the hogshead. Let us know what you find.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by TonyB » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:45 am

Kerry, the only thick clutch plate I remember seeing was a large plate with the cut outs on the outside of the ring.
Tony Bowker
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1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by modeltbarn » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:05 pm

I agree with Kerry, that looks like the distance plate in the picture, not a clutch disc.

I have had an interference problem with removable bands. It's been some years, I know I was able to correct it with a little careful grinding. I'm thinking it was on the removable ear itself, it may have been on the reinforcing web inside the hogshead. This would have been on an aluminum hogshead, but not the early one with a square cover. I caught it during assembly because the band wouldn't completely release.

I also agree with Steve; if the distance plate is catching you're screwed......

If you've got the hogshead off and still have a problem turning the car over by hand, and if you can move the bands around the drums, then it's not the interference issue. At that point it seems like your best course is to pull it apart and recheck everything (and every measurement) in the transmission. You'll know for sure if you used the distance plate.....and you want to know! I know this is obvious, but as you assemble make sure everything rotates freely at each step. I just don't see a good alternative; you don't want to take a chance of wreaking an early block.

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by TonyB » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:17 pm

This afternoon I had an hour to spare so I installed the hogs head with just the low transmission band. The low band was the style with the long thin ear and measured thicker than the more common button style. There is a little more drag but both ears appear to be quite loose until the pedal is depressed.
So I don’t think the hogs head is trapping the band onto the drum.
Tony Bowker
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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:47 pm

...the only thick clutch plate I remember seeing was a large plate with the cut outs on the outside of the ring.

The #3330 spacer has tabs on the inside to fit the clutch drum.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by TonyB » Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:30 pm

Well after a couple of weeks poking around I believe I have located the problem.
In the course of the work I removed the motor, more later. While it was out I replaced the hogs head and flywheel with a starter version and ran the motor. It turned fine and after a little adjustment of the five ball carb it runs well.
1909 motor running.
1909 motor running.
I also checked the transmission and clutch, both are just fine.
Now back to removing the motor. When I loosened the front two bolts, after the initial tightness I can usually remove the screws with my fingers. Not this time. As I loosened the bolts, the bridge kept rising keeping pressure on the bolts. Odd. So I pushed the motor down and removed the screws and let go of the motor. The nose rose up about three inches. Yes I’ve never seen this before and most of you doubt me but it happened. When I removed the four bolts at the UJ the back axle moved back about half an inch.
Gap between pan and rear axle
Gap between pan and rear axle
When I pull the hand brake the axle moves forward until it touches the pan. The force of the misplaced axle could lift the nose of the engine. This believe was bending the pan and causing the hard cranking.
Just in case any doubters question the pan location, the pictures below show the nose and arms of the pan during the test. Prior to assembly the pan was straightened on a fixed by a renounced mechanic who has all the equipment for these early cars.
Nose of the 1909 pan
Nose of the 1909 pan
Arm of the 1909 pan
Arm of the 1909 pan
As a check, the wheel base of the vehicle was compared to the 24 coupe and the 14 touring and sure enough it is about half an inch longer.
The present plan is to run the motor in over the next few weeks while the location of the axle is investigated. The plan is to have it completed by May in time for a local car show in Fallbrook.
Tony Bowker
Ramona, California
1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Norman Kling » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:10 pm

It would be interesting if others on the forum who have an 09 could measure the wheelbase and the length of the driveshaft to see if it might have possibly been shortened in later production? A question for Tony, did you check whether your frame was level and straight while the body was off? Is it possible that the frame sags at the rear engine mounts? It would also be interesting to check the crankcase on a fixture. I don't personally know who in southern California might have one? This would determine whether your problem is in the crankcase.
Good luck Tony. Your problem is perplexing.
Norm


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by 2nighthawks » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:03 pm

Tony - First of all, thanks so much for taking the time and making the effort to keep us "updated" with the "write-up" and excellent photos of your finding thus far. Quite a unique set of circumstances so far. Has to be frustrating after all of your efforts in connection with a long and tedious but very thorough and beautifully done restoration.

The variation in wheelbase is certainly an "oddity"! I can't help but wonder if that half inch variation in wheelbase length was determined with rear spring firmly affixed in the rear crossmember, and with the spring perches tightened normally. Wondering if perhaps the spring might have been slightly "cocked" when the U-bolts were tightened, especially if there was some kind of cushioning pad installed between spring and crossmember. Or could one of the perches be slightly bent and somehow mis-aligned,.....altho' that seems even more "far-fetched" than the whole rear spring being slightly "cocked" in the crossmember when U=bolts were tightened. Just sort of,...."thinking-out-loud" Tony. Whatever the case, it sounds like you're getting the source of the problem narrowed down, and you'll find it,......harold


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:49 pm

Is the driveshaft housing an original "no spool" housing?
is the bolt-on ball end a repro?
is the square drive on the u joint so long that it is hitting a welch plug in the tailshaft (which wouldn't have been there originally)?
is the driveshaft a repro?
as riveted to the driveshaft, is the u joing flex-point in the center of the ball or forward of it?
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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by TonyB » Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:28 pm

Scott asked lots of question which may have some bearing on the problems. I’ll try to answer but remember I bought a kit if parts and quite honestly have little idea on the source of parts. I was told it ran some twelve years ago and broke a crank. I don’t know if this problem caused the broken crank. If the problem existed Twelve years ago, I have little doubt it would break the crank.

Scott’s questions......
Is the driveshaft housing an original "no spool" housing?
Don’t know

is the bolt-on ball end a repro?
I don’t think so, how do I tell

is the square drive on the u joint so long that it is hitting a welch plug in the tailshaft (which wouldn't have been there originally)?
No

is the driveshaft a repro?
Don’t know. How do I tell

as riveted to the driveshaft, is the u joing flex-point in the center of the ball or forward of it?
Looks to be centered.

What I do know that when I pulled the axle forward to meet the pan, the wheelbase was similar to the coupe and touring. So I believe the torque tube is the correct length.
Hopefully I can leave all this nonsense and leave for Chickasha within a couple of days.
Hopefully the meet will not be cancelled.
Tony Bowker
Ramona, California
1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Nv Bob » Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:45 pm

Interesting
While out you might check pan on a jig
Might have bent spring cross member or could be bunxhs of little things all adding up


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:23 pm

Tony

the idea that something is so tremendously forceful as to lift the front of the engine is, like it is to all of us...perplexing.

What could be such a huge lever as to apply such mechanical advantage so as to push down on the engine at the rear to lift the front?

My line of questioning was to ascertain if the riveted location of the U Joint was so far forward that it would act as a prying lever when the rear axle was raised (or frame settled down under weight of the body). The "ball" of the front of the axle MUST rotate about it's spherical certerline within the socket in the pan, but if the yoke of the U Joint was FORWARD of that center of rotation then lifting the rear axle (or placing weight on the car) would force the U Joint DOWN, and try to lift the front of the engine. Similarly, dropping the axle out of the car should free it up at some point until such time as it goes over center again and tries to lift the rear of the engine, forcing the nose "down".

This is the only possible explaination I can come up with given your description of unbolting the front of the engine while the car sat on the ground.
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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by TonyB » Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:43 pm

Great news today....
I hand cranked the 09 motor and on the third pull it started.
I can now feel the compression quite separate from new motor stiffness
Scott - my theory on the the axle being too far back is that the torque tube is at an angle so it pulls the motor, which is normally horizontal, pulls the motor to the same angle, thus raising the nose. When the nose is constrained by the front bolts, the early pan bends causing excess friction.
Bob - I did mention earlier that the pan was checked by a renowned restorer and it is straight.
Tony Bowker
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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by modeltbarn » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:38 pm

It sounds like the rear cross member may not be Allowing the rear spring to be square to the frame. It wouldn’t take much of an angle to push the Center point of the rear axles back 1/2”

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by dobro1956 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:42 pm

Hi Tony. There could be one more item to check as to the length of the drive shaft or something else creating the 1/2 inch gap. Have you checked how the rear spring is sitting in the cross member. I had a similar problem on my 27 touring. I also had about a 1/2 inch gap when I replaced the rear axle and spring after rebuilding them. I think the rear spring did not "seat" properally when I reinstalled it. Just looking at the spring and u-bolts everything looked OK. To fix the problem I loosened the rear spring u-bolts, and also the rear spring perch nuts. Then I could bolt up the drive shaft to the engine. I then carefully re-tightened the rear spring u-bolts first, and then the spring perch nuts. I then un-bolted the drive shaft to verify nothing was in a bind. It fixed my 1/2 inch gap and nothing was in a bind. The rear spring and spring perches may not have anything to do with your problem, but it may be worth looking at.

Have fun and be safe. Hope to see you at Chickasha.....

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by TonyB » Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:35 pm

Today rather than packing for Chickasha, I checked the rear spring on the 1909. Man that thing is heavy.
My thought was to just reverse it and see how the gap changed. After three hours pushing and shoving, the gap is exactly the same.
So the problem is not the spring.
Before the rebuild, I checked the chassis for flatness and it was within 1/8” along both sides
I wonder if the cross member at the rear is distorted??
This is getting old.....
At least the engine cranks by hand and runs nicely😊
Tony Bowker
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1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Nv Bob » Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:55 pm

Tony good
I'm casualy following here as my 13 motor has this same issue but think mine mix matched clutch in the trans i biult up years ago. And probly put in new or better brake drum
Glad the motors/trans good
Keep chipping away like im doing


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Norman Kling » Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:23 pm

One other thing which I have thought of since my last post: The possibility the spring has either sagged or is too tall? The length of the wheel base changes as the spring is compressed. When the spring is sitting tall, the rear wheels are closer to the fenders, but as the spring is compressed, it gets farther away. So that could explain the difference in wheelbase.

In at least one of the pictures, it looked like the ball was to one side of the pan. Is it square with the rear of the transmission now?
Norm


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by modeltbarn » Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:25 pm

Tony; distortion of the rear crossmember, or bending of it, was what I was trying to suggest. If it’s out of square with the frame the spring will be also.

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by TonyB » Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:14 pm

As usual with these complex problems, the cause and therefore solution was staring me in the face but I was too focussed to see it.
Look at the nuts on the radius rods.
Nut on radius rod
Nut on radius rod
Notice how close the it is to the end of the thread. Yes it’s about 3/8” along the rod than normal. The early axle housing is bent.
I’m told by an expert in these early cars that it is a common problem and 1/2” out of line is quite usual. So the differential housing is bent backwards compared to the axle ends
I would have expected it to bind up being so far out of line but these early axle housings are so flexible that they continue to function even when bent.
Next problem is how to straighten it, maybe I can find a fixture somewhere. The alternative is to carefully measure a later axle and adjust this 09 until the dimensions match.
Watch this space.
Tony Bowker
Ramona, California
1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by CudaMan » Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:48 pm

Glad you found the problem! :)
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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Kaiser » Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:25 pm

My T must have been T-boned from the right sometime in the past, the right radius rod was bent in and the right half of the rear axle was bent forward. it turned out the bend was right close to the diff housing, I decided to try and straighten it myself.
This is the contraption that i came up with, its jury-rigged but it worked and it was made with what i had on hand in the shop;

first i found a piece of thick walled tube that fit snugly into the old bearing sleeve and was long enough to support the length of the diff housing all the way in to the rivets.
Next i found a piece of square tubing big enough to drill a hole in to slide the pipe through, then a piece of heavy square tubing across the top with a hole drilled so my hydraulic puller fitted through so i could use it as a press, and last a piece of heavy chain and a piece of scrap angle iron to spread the load from the chain and have the axle housing bend where I wanted it to bend
some pressure added and carefull use of the torch to heat the place where the tube had to stretch and presto !
I checked for straightness by measuring from housing flange to brake backplate on top and bottom, if both are the same the housing must be straight.
After about five cycles of pressure, heat and cooling down i got it right, after assembly of the axle the shaft is just under a tenth inch off center, good enough for me,
Good luck !
Attachments
crap, upside down, can't help it, sorry
crap, upside down, can't help it, sorry
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Kaiser » Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:29 pm

Should have mentioned the two pieces of square tubing are only welded on th outside so the piece of big square tube with the pipe through it can flex away from the pressure point otherwise the whole setup would be rigid and won't work :roll:
The clamp in the middle is just there to prevent the whole setup from rolling off the table, its kind of top heavy so that was an issue but the clamp is only just tight enough to prevent that from happening without distorting anything, only "fingertight"
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Norman Kling » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:28 pm

I'm glad you found the cause. Sad that you will need to do some work to fix it, however, it is much better to find it now than to ruin the engine because of it.
Norm

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Mark Nunn » Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:07 pm

Tony, the lock washer goes against the rear nut, not the castle nut. The castle nut has a cotter pin to keep it from loosening. The other nut needs a lock washer.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Michael Paul » Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:44 pm

Hi Tony, Erik Barrett has a lathe setup that he straightens rear axle housings with. You should contact him. He routinely uses it whenever it rebuilds a rear axle.
Hope this helps.
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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Adam » Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:14 pm

Remove the lock washer and the castle nut will be about where it’s supposed to be. I wonder if that is indeed the issue...


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by pete eastwood » Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:21 pm

Is the engine still out of the car ?
If so , put a wrench on the square of the U joint & turn it , & see if everything in the rear end turns freely .


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:36 am

Adam

I was wondering the same thing in thinking that moving the split washer to the backside, it would look pretty normal...and If the rear axle is really bent to the extent that it has been explained, I would have thought that putting in the outer axle bearings would have been quite a wrestling match. And if it was, that memory would likely stick with me even if I didn't understand the significance of it at the time. All speculation I suppose and truely hope Tony shares the final results...I'm pretty sure he will.

Good luck Tony!
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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:06 am

One way to get an idea as to whether the axle tubes are bent would be to remove the wheels and outer bearings. If the axles are centered in the sleeves, your tube is quite straight. If they are not centered, it would indicate which side or both are bent.
Norm


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Scott Rosenthal » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:38 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnlCCugAC3Y
Here's my simple solution to a similar mis-alignment. This can be done with the axle still in the car (water and a fire extinguisher always at the ready).
Not seeing any problem with your radius rods at the torque-tube, other than previously noted lock washers on the wrong side of the mounting flange.
Distance from the axle threaded ends to the center of the torque-ball needs to be equal. Use the radius rod nuts to jack screw these as needed, then lock down and cotter pin them. Threaded radius rod lengths forward of the mounting flange may or may not be equal assembled length...not a problem.
Regards,
Scott

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by TonyB » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:27 pm

Well after nearly three months of messing around, we found the cause of the hard cranking on the 09.
You may remember that when we disconnected the drive shaft it cranked easily so we deduced the problem lay in the position of the rear axle was about 3/8” too far back.
09 axle before adjustments
09 axle before adjustments
Eventually I installed a later rear axle, thanks to the Klecan’s, which we believed was fairly straight and sure enough the UJ was still about 1/4” from the pan indicating either spring or rear cross member was bent. I reversed the spring with absolutely no change so the know that the rear cross member is definitely bent.
Next the choice was to removed the body and rework the cross member or to add a shim. I chose the shim.
Then I re-installed the original axle and it was still about 1/8” from the UJ so we deduced the axle housing was a little bent which we corrected by adjusting the two radius rods. The axle still function nicely.
Now the axle just touches the pan perfectly.
09 axle after adjustments
09 axle after adjustments
Job done.
I would just like to thank everyone who helped and commented during the thread, keep safe during these difficult times.
Tony Bowker
Ramona, California
1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:36 pm

That's good to know and your post can also help others who might have the same problem. Be careful you don't get injured. This is not a good time to have a hospital visit! Hope you and your family will remain free of this terrible disease and we can resume our club activities.
Norm

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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by richc » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:08 pm

Wouldn’t loosening the spring perches at the rear axle housing allow you to swivel the entire rear end assembly forward the required ¼”?

Rich C.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Allan » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:46 pm

Rich makes an excellent point re the rear spring perches. When putting together any assembly, it is often a good idea, to put it all together before doing any tensioning up of components. The rear axle assembly should fit up nicely to the rear of the pan before the perch nuts are tightened, so that the spring is aligned correctly. Then the spring is tightened in the frame and the perches done last.
The same applies on the front axle. The spindle arms should be left loose in the spindles so that when the tie rod is fitted , with the adjustable end also left loose, all componentas go together each aligned by the other before tensioning. likewise the front perches should be left relaxed until the spring is fitted to the axle.
The only thing to remember is to do the final tightening and split pin fitting!

Allan from down under.


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Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Allan » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:05 pm

Tony, When working with 'kit's' of gathered together parts, there are often such difficulties getting the mix to marry as a unit, especially where the mix of parts is unknown. In your photo showing the pan arm and inside bottom of the pan, I cannot see the tapered down top of the ridges on the top of the frame rail, as I would expect on an early pan. I can only see 3 rivets holding the pan arm onto the pan, but there should be more that perhaps are just not visible in the photo. Non tapered ridges and 3 rivets may indicate that the pan arm is a replacement. That may or may not be OK. If the replacement is from a pan which had the rolled outer edge, these mounted lower on the pan. Such an arm mounted on an early pan may result in the pans sitting lower in the frame. If only one side has been worked on, the problem is compounded. The only indication you may have is the side mounting bolt holes do not line up in the frame.
Allan from down under.


Art Wilson
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:53 pm
First Name: Art
Last Name: Wilson
Location: San Diego

Re: Hard crank on my 1909 touring.

Post by Art Wilson » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:51 am

Tony,
After messing with the radius rods on the rear end of your car, you should check that the rear wheels are properly aligned.
Fellow club member Less V's 13 touring was wearing out rear tires way too soon. He found the rear wheels had considerable tow-out. He was able to correct it by adjusting the radius rods.
Art

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