When a novice drops a washer.......

[TonyB]

A Model T came into the workshop a week or so ago. The novice owner had dropped a washer while changing bands, couldn’t find it so ran the motor. It lasted about 30 minutes then stopped with a Big Bang.

Today I managed to get the hogshead off, made more difficult as something was stopping the starter from coming out.


The other damage was quite extensive as the hogs head is cracked and the pan has holes.

This is what I found when I removed the hoghead

Sorry about the wrong order, I have not yet mastered getting the pictures where I want

[Steve Jelf]

Tommy Lee Jones in The Fugitive: "My, my, my, my my. What A Mess!"

[25 roadster john]

Must have been a fairly large washer.

[Norman Kling]

Ouch! Time for a complete rebuild of transmission, flywheel, starter and magneto! My grandma said something which applied to sewing, but also could be applied to a T. "A stitch in time saves nine". Even if he had to pull the hogs head to get the washer, he would have saved much time and money. Better check the crankshaft too. Such an abrupt stop could put quite a strain on it.
Norm

[Marty Bufalini]

Really? All that from one dropped Washer?

[Ruxstel24]

That's just ugly !!
I wager he won't forget that lesson...EVER !!

[Wayne Sheldon]

One little washer is like one little domino. Drop it, and a whole long line of them can topple over!

[TWrenn]

Wow...when I think how far from home, and how fast he could've been driving in those 30 minutes makes me shiver. Lucky
nothing worse, nor no one apparently hurt. These things can be like a bomb exploding sometimes. I've always wondered about the benefit of "lining" the underside of the floorboards with sheet metal to maybe offer a bit more occupant protection in the event of a catastrophic failure of this sort.

[Tom Hicks]

I'm not saying that a washer did not cause this, but...

isn't that damage consistent with part of the magneto breaking free and the chain reaction of destruction that can follow?

[Tom Hicks]

And, let me ask, did you get permission from the "novice owner" to post pictures of his engine which you are working on?

[Scott_Conger]

Must have been a fairly large washer.

. Well the guy was changing bands, so I'd imagine it was a band washer. They're big and stout.

Really? All that from one dropped Washer?

. A momentary wedging of that washer and a magnet breaks, a keeper comes off the brass screw, and the whole thing will come to pieces with impressive results.

And, let me ask, did you get permission from the "novice owner" to post pictures of his engine which you are working on?

. Tom, you're kidding, right?

[Tom Hicks]

And, let me ask, did you get permission from the "novice owner" to post pictures of his engine which you are working on?

. Tom, you're kidding, right?
[/quote]

Not kidding at all.

The "novice owner" might not want pictures of his engine posted on a public forum along with the "fact" that the damage is from a washer he dropped into the engine.

Would you take your car to a repair shop that posted pictures of the problem and said your ignorance caused it?

[noelchico]

I'm no attorney, but no names or location were placed with the picture, so there is no way I can identify who the owner of the mishap vehicle is. I agree, Tom, that maybe the correct thing would have been to ask permission of the owner if you could post pictures to other model T owners to perhaps prevent a similar mishap in their cars. Also, assure him that no personal information is used. Noel

[Norman Kling]

Answer to Tom Hicks.
When a piece of iron or steel is dropped into the transmission, if it should happen to contact one of the magnets on the magneto, it will be forced around the magneto at the speed of the flywheel. Should it come in contact with the plate which is attached with a brass screw to the poles of the magnet and tear off that plate and eventually touch something else such as the poles on the magneto coil or the starter shaft and it happens that the magnet breaks at the weak point of the V. The magnet will come off with force and hit whatever is in line with it.

Yes it could happen to any magnet without a washer, but the washer is most likely what caused it in that case. I once had the funnel of my oil line come in contact with the magnet and it tore off the funnel and immediately cut the magneto coil. I didn't know what had happened for about 10 years, because I drove on battery for those years and since I had an outside oiler, i had no problem with the engine bearings. Later when I was restoring another T , I rewound an extra magneto coil and decided to install it in the first Model T. When I pulled things down, I found what had happened to the magneto. Fortunately the funnel was laying down in the bottom of the crankcase and caused no further damage.
Norm

[Tom Hicks]

I am not saying it is a legal matter. But maybe ethical? Or politeness? Just because no names or locations are posted does not mean that info can't be figured out. I can't put my finger on it, but something just does not seem right here. It is as if the repair shop is mocking the "novice owner".

[Scott_Conger]

As a chance to show others what can happen if you leave stray objects in a transmission? No, I would not mind. For example, you seem skeptical that a washer could do that damage thinking that this damage is from a broken magneto. Well, you were 1/2 right, and you also just learned that something as inocuous as an errant washer CAN be the Root Cause to a broken magneto. Isn't that a good thing? I can guarantee you that SOMEONE reading this in the future will save themselves the expense and trouble of this damage, and go fish that dang washer out when they drop it. It isn't something to fool with or ignore. In my opinion, what Tony did was a public service, and nothing more. I doubt I am alone in this thinking, but will retire from this topic and let the stone-throwers have at it...

[Tom Hicks]

Yes, the washer was probably the problem.

If the owner wanted to post what he had done I would have no problem with it.


It does not seem right to me that the repair shop would post it without the "novice owner's" permission, even as a public service.


But I recognize that everyone has varying levels of what they consider right and wrong.

[DanTreace]

I
Good deed stating that a new owner had this happen. Many before likely too. Do feel pain in his happening, but the issue of ignorance of the new owner was never posted. For many its a good lesson in the dynamics of the spinning Ford flywheel magneto and plantary transmission.

Suspect that many new T owners don't have the Owners Manual or the Service Manual at first, and the warnings in the Ford Owner's manual are there.

Early manuals give a Caution, the later manual for the demountable bands gives that caution in BOLD face!

For that caution in the manual , "good wire or cord attached" my buddy when the inspection door is off, is a tough dental floss. Wrapped on all the little pieces....

Lace the nut and washer and after placing, the floss can be busted away with ease.

But do heed the Ford Service Manual @ paragraph 519. When placing the hogshead on engine assembly "good plan to install the door on the trans. cover temporarily" One time forgot that, and had a handful of caps screws and lock washers for the hogshead fastening and out of the palm fell a lock washer

The hogshead was already sealed down, and was facing removing it, but very lucky that lock washer could be seen on the clutch spring gaps and retrieved it

So....careful when that trans. door is off. Have learned from another on this forum to also remove the ignition key when that door is off! The abyss below is a hazard for loose pieces.

[TTtom]

Dan,
Great advice about the dental floss! These type of tips are why I now read the forum religiously. I am just about to change my bands and have lots of rags for stuffing per Milt Webb and now floss, which really makes me less tentative. Love all you experienced and knowledgable guys sharing!!

[Steve Jelf]

One way to prevent dropping nuts and washers in is to stuff rags in around the drums to catch any dropped items. Just be sure you count the rags and take out the same number you put in.

[BobD]

I am just about to change my bands and have lots of rags for stuffing per Milt Webb and now floss, which really makes me less tentative. Love all you experienced and knowledgable guys sharing!!

Just don’t do what I did and leave a rag in there. Although I only hand cranked the engine, the rag got caught in the triple gears and locked up the works. Took over 2 hours of digging with various picks to remove what was left of the rag.

Edit, as per Steve J. The one I left in was out of sight. Counting will indeed be added to my checklist.

[JimDix]

Dental floss has many uses, that's a new one. Duly noted. Thankyouverymuch!

[DanTreace]

Jim

You are welcome. I learned early using the rags, but one time a nut fell into the rag folds, and could not be found.
Can guess what then occurred as the rag was being most carefully pulled up to expose that nut

So learned of the floss wrap and now no worrying. Only one time, was pulling the cotter pins from the clutch screws and my single loop floss came apart, from the clamping of the needle nose pliers, just barely saving that cotter pin from falling in.

Now when doing real pulling on parts or for extra 'safe satisfaction', am using two strands of dental floss, doubling the strength of my 'cord'

And use floss on those cotter pins for install and removal, but now the tool is a miniature locking vise grip needle nose on the cotter pin!

[Scott_Conger]

Dan

all good stuff...one thing I make sure of is that clutch finger cotter pins are spread sufficiently to not come out, but NEVER clinched like for rods, kingpins, etc., and NO cotter comes out without being tied off to floss first.

[DanTreace]

Scott

Yep. Safe than Sorry Sometimes a length of small stiff wire can be a good 'cord' too.

[TonyB]

I remember many years ago working on the Coupe with the transmission door off and the key in the ignition. Yes the inevitable happened and the damn key fell into the bowl of the transmission. I had to pull the motor, expensive lesson.
I posted this as a caution note to novices and no disrespect to the novice owner. Another expensive lesson.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Hey Tony! Wow, that one IS a mess! However, it is not nearly the worst I have ever seen. I think it was Erik Barrett posted one a couple years ago that was worse. And almost fifty years ago, I went to the Turlock swap meet where a fellow had a model T engine he had found in a barn. It had been sitting for decades, removed from its car and not touched. The engine was not for sale, he took it as a display item only because he was so amazed by it. It had splayed out the hogshead, blew a hole in the pan large enough to drop a whole magnet through it, and broke at least two transmission drums into pieces.
About half the time, a band washer, nut or small bolt gets left in? It finds its way into a safe spot, and can hide there for years of driving (often hung onto by a magnet). About half the time, it hits a bad spot and causes trouble, like Norman Kling and his oil funnel, the damage is relatively minor and the car can keep going (sometimes for many years) (and even an oil funnel mostly thin sheet metal can wedge in the wrong spot and cascade a massive blowup!).
Ten probably, maybe twenty percent of the time, a small item left in the transmission/engine will cause a major breakage. Maybe five percent of the time it will cause a massive blowup.
So. Advice for ALL. If some little thing gets dropped in? Like Dirty Harry with a big gun pointed in your face. Do you feel lucky?

Another piece of advice for all. When working on your engine. Even if only a hogshead off in the car. Take a minute to look closely at all the magnets on the flywheel. Twice so far, with engines others had put together, I have found a bolt or washer hanging onto a magnet. I felt SO much better when driving the car later knowing that time-bomb wasn't there.

[Rich Bingham]

Tom, all of us begin with Model Ts as "novices" no one need take offense, and the caution this threads provides is a public service reminder for all of us, I think.
I also have a lot of faith in our model T "community's" ability to be resilient about our mistakes and take them with good humor. The thread titles " have you ever made a stupid mistake" pretty well bears this out.

[TonyB]

Thanks Rich
I was getting concerned that I had overstepped yet again
By the way the owner has decided to let me fix it properly, which is great news.

[Oldav8tor]

Wow! Very important info - thanks for sharing.

[Tom Hicks]

I was getting concerned that I had overstepped yet again
By the way the owner has decided to let me fix it properly, which is great news.

Well, I am opinionated, and that is not always a good thing. You have shared well known, but valuable information. It is difficult to post of someone doing this without making them look either ignorant or stupid. I feel it is one thing for someone who makes a mistake to post of it, it is another thing to post of other's mistakes. It is like you are making fun of them, or showing your superiority. Something about the way you shared it bothers me, but bothers no others on the forum, so obviously it is just me being me.


Since you told the owner you shared his mistake on the forum so everyone can read about it, and the owner does not mind, there is NO problem. How he feels about it is what really matters.

[dobro1956]

Here is another one to look at. It was being towed when it came apart. It destroyed the firewall, floor boards, coil box, and broke the starter snout off, as well as breaking the exhaust manifold off. . It was in a TT truck and the entire inside of the cab was covered in oil. Even the ceiling. This was a customers truck from sometime about 1990. I have posted these before and yes the owner knew I was posting them.

[Rich Bingham]

Every time I read this topic title, I can't help fitting it to music, as in the 1966 hit song "When a Man Loves a Woman" (Percy Sledge). More lyrics, anyone ?

[John Warren]

Those things can really explode! Makes me worry about just going over 40. :0

[Ruxstel24]

Every time I read this topic title, I can't help fitting it to music, as in the 1966 hit song "When a Man Loves a Woman" (Percy Sledge). More lyrics, anyone ?

When a novice drops a washer....you can sit back and watch it explowowode !!!

[26troadster]

Wow. That's terrible. That would ruin a day

[dobro1956]

I did not tell the "rest of the story". The TT was a nice original body, wood cab truck. The new owner could not get it running because it was in the winter time and very cold. He lived less than five miles away so they decided to tow it home. (the previous owner was out of state at the time, so he had no input into the event) The new owner was in the truck when it exploded. The only thing that saved him was he had on full winter clothing. Carhart coveralls, ski mask, heavy gloves and boots. he also wore glasses. He said when the transmission exploded, it felt like his knees went behind his ears. He said it almost turned him upside down. Him and every square inch of the inside of the cab was covered in hot oil. The pictures show the engine as I removed it, It looked worse before I removed the engine because all the floorboards and wood firewall were splintered to shreds, The entire transmission assembly was in the seat beside where the owner was sitting. When the flywheel broke it allowed the entire transmission assembly to come out as one piece. One of the triple gears went completely thru the driver side door. How it missed the guys legs is a miracle. The moral of this story is "do not tow a model T" They made it about 2 miles. I was able to salvage the motor, and the transmission drums were all still useable. I replaced the hogs head, oil pan, starter, flywheel and magneto, exhaust manifold, and a few other things. They steam cleaned the inside of the cab, replaced the firewall, coil box, floor boards, and fixed the hole in the door. The truck is still running today...

[RajoRacer]

Thus one of the reasons the NHRA requires "scatter shields" !

[donald4ham]

as far as the truck transmission coming apart, i am new to the game and have heard that you do not tow a T, but what made the trans fly apart like it did if the engine was not running? and how would the oil be hot? Just a little confused. Also, would it be feasible to make a light weight tow dolly to place under the rear wheels if there was need to pull the vehicle, just a thought.

[Tom Hicks]

The owner was a novice. He probably removed the transmission inspection plate and dropped a washer in before they started towing.

Not sure why the poster asked the owner if he could post pictures, but he did, so everything is OK!

[DanTreace]

would it be feasible to make a light weight tow dolly to place under the rear wheels if there was need to pull the vehicle

No, you cannot in any way pull a T backward on a dolly under the rear wheels. The T can only go in very very slow reverse, as the steering geometry can't be controlled.

To move a dead T, push it on a flatbed tow truck and haul away, or push up on a trailer and tow the trailer with T on it.

Towing a dead T on all fours makes the rear end turn the drive line, since there is no neutral in the trans. Any tow 'in neutral' at a speed will overheat oil and lockup trans discs. If a dead T is towed in high gear, the engine turns, creating some oil splash, but even with spark plugs out, to relieve compression strain, its just too much load, heat, and wear at any speed other than a crawl. If you like your T, don't tow it on all fours.

[dobro1956]

Dan is correct. The trans clutch disc were warped and very blue, almost welded together. The three thrust washers were welded together. When towing any distance, disc's are turning inside the clutch till they finally get so hot they lock up and then they start turning the engine. I am guessing, but I think when the engine started turning is when something came loose. The guy said they did not get over 30 miles an hour, but at that speed how many rpms would a TT rear end be turning the engine. ?? At the time I did not do a CSI investigation into the mishap, but I always felt like the clutch disc's locked up and the rpms then destroyed the engine. As to the owner knowing if I used the pictures. He was there when I took the pictures, I told him I wanted the pictures to show others "what not to do" and he had no problems with it. This had nothing to do with a dropped washer. I posted these as another example of "what could happen" Seems like every time something gets posted, someone jumps in with something negative to say.

OK Ill crawl back in my cave now ..............

[Bob McDaniel]

If we never see pictures like this we all know someone will do it again. I would hate to see someone destroy a nice Model T or even worse get hurt or killed because no body told them not to pull it down the road. This is what this forum is for, to help others learn from our or others mistakes. I say we need more of this type of post. Who would have thought this could happen from just pulling a car a short distance or any distance for that matter?

[Ruxstel24]

The clutch pack dries out very quickly without the flywheel churning the oil around.
Then everything goes wrong.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Yes, this is one of the most important reasons for this and other forums! To help spread knowledge and experience, and help others to learn to NOT make serious, dangerous, and expensive mistakes. As long as reasonable care to not expose the unwilling names is taken? There should be NO problem with such postings or threads.

For whatever it is worth. It has been debated many times what the maximum towing limit should be for a disabled T. There is no hard and simple number for it. However roughly two tenths of a mile, and not over 5 mph is a decent limit. NO MORE!

[Tom Hicks]

I posted these as another example of "what could happen" Seems like every time something gets posted, someone jumps in with something negative to say.

I take it I am the "someone"?

As I age I see changes in decorum that would not have occurred back in the day. And a lack of understanding of the English language.

We are all born ignorant. "Ignorant" is not a bad word. Ignorance is not knowing something because one has not been exposed to it. Ignorant is not the same as "stupid".

Stupid is lacking the ability to learn or understand, a basic lack of common sense.

Now let's take the title of this thread, "When a novice drops a washer......." A "novice" is someone who is new to a field or situation. By definition a novice is ignorant of the field or situation. If they were not ignorant of the field or situation they would not be a novice.

When a novice makes a mistake it is understandable, they made the mistake due to ignorance. So there is no insult in saying a novice is ignorant in the field he is a novice in.

Dropping a washer in a transmission and running an engine, Model T or otherwise, shows a great deal of ignorance not only of Model T's, but of anything with moving parts.


But when the OP refers to the washer dropping owner as a novice he is saying the washer dropping owner is ignorant, not only of Model T's but of anything with moving parts.

And when the OP refers to the washer dropping owner as a novice the Op is putting himself in a position of superiority where everyone on the forum can have a good laugh at the novice. And then other posters rush to the OP's defense saying it is a public service to show the problems a washer can cause. The ends justify the means. But there are other means to reach the same end.


The polite thing to do (in my opinion) would be ask the owner if it was OK to post his problems on the a public forum and then go from there with a title like, "Disastrous Results from a washer dropped in a transmission". There is no need to say the owner is a novice.

But, as I said in a previous post, that is just me. I think the OP was rude to post this thread without asking the owner first. No one else on the forum sees it my way. So, yeah, I am that "someone". So Y'all carry on, but you might want to consider how anyone who is a novice that comes to this forum would consider this thread, and that having their T worked on could result in their problems posted without their knowledge in the name of a public service announcement.

Bottom line is the OP has now told the owner of this thread and the owner has no problem with it.

[Inthegarage]

I have no explanation on what happened here. I was driving along and I heard click,click and then BANG !! Towed it home opened the transmission cover and wow! It even broke the pinion gear.

[DanTreace]

John

That is a mess indeed. Lots of grief.

Saw transmission look like that only once. Owner built speedster on the sands in Ormond Beach antique car timed runs. Great fun day. Anyway he had just gotten underway, rear tires throwing sand, then oops he stalled fast.

Later he looked in the cover plate and told me the low drum was in pieces. Viewed it back at his garage with hogsheads off and drum was in multiple pieces. Later he told me pieces and threads of lining were everywhere, had to dissemble the entire motor to clean it.

[TonyB]

We use to have a guy in the local club who built fast Ts. One day he decided to return home on the freeway doing over 50mph and his reverse drum let go. Bits flew everywhere. The hogshead shattered and bits came thru the floor narrowly missing the driver.
Mind you he used the reverse for a brake, which is usually considered a bad idea.

[George Mills]

Donnie Brown...

I didn't see it mentioned, but there maybe needs to also be a never ever clause on TT's being tug towed even with plugs out....

I just did the math in my head and if I did it right, at 30 MPH, even for a little bit, that crankshaft (and ergo the flywheel) is spinning at 2400 RPM? A T car with standard rear would only do half that.

[dobro1956]

George. I figured that the engine explosion was probably caused by the excessive RPMs The thing that I have always wondered about is, what did it sound like in that truck cab before the engine exploded. . Most of us have trained ourselves to "listen, and hear" what is going on with the engine. It must have sounded terrible just from the rpms of the engine.

I think of the movie National Lampoons Vacation. The scene where the cop pulls the Griswalds over. The cop comes to the window of the car holding a dog collar on a rope. It seems Mr Griswald tied their pet dog to the rear bumper before they left on vacation, and forgot to untie and load the dog when they left. The cop says the poor dog kept up with the car for the first mile or so and then poor dog. I think the poor model T engine kept up for the first mile or so, then . poor model T engine ..........