Playin in the shop today... round duex!

[Kevin Pharis]

So... I have been leaning toward the idea of making my speedster engine more “era correct” as I swap over to the Akron-Hed, but I really like the reliability of some of my relatively modern accessories. The items on the list to consider removing; belt driven alternator, Datsun oil pump, and electric water pump. But arguably, all these systems are critical and so can’t simply be omitted...

In order to get rid of my electric water pump, I must consider moving the belt driven alternator, which will displace the Datsun oil pump from the genny drive. Talk about a snowball effect!

I have a 3in1 front plate, and the water pump would be sufficient, but the oil pump is no more than cosmetic, and the alternator still has no where to go as the Datsun oil pump is still in the genny drive. I do like the Datsun oil pump tho, the built in oil pressure bypass and spin on filter mount make this little bigger really appealing. And it easily makes 50+ lbs of pressure too!

A Fronty side drive was strongly considered (and am even making a Fronty water manifold as part of my poorly planned scheme). This is a fairly complicated casting (that i don’t have) to run a water pump and high tension magneto in place of the genny. I am a bit partial to my VW dizzy, and don’t care to do the mag thing again. And what about the genny...? Still belt driven!

So I started scratching together a few ideas...

[AndyClary]

I think at this point the Datsun pump is holding you back. If you know a good machinist I don’t think it would be a big deal to make a new oil pump housing with a pass through shaft to run the alternator.
The other thought is just how much charging you need. Unless your wife insists on seat heaters you really don’t need a lot of juice.

Andy

[Kevin Pharis]

The electrical tidbits are from a tiny little permanent magnet dynamo designed to be used on 20-40 hp tractors... it’s supposed to start charging bout 8 amps 12v at 2000 rpm (1325 engine rpm), 15 amps around 3000 rpm (2000 engine rpm), and no more than 18 amps by 6000 rpm (4000 engine rpm).

All I have to power is the LED headlights, fuel pump, ignition, a few gages... and maybe the electric water pump. Good luck getting seat heaters in this car! Don’t tell my wife I said that

Here is a shot of the design so far. Only about 4.5” diameter and 9” long with the oil pump installed, so no more intrusive than the original genny.

[Scott_Conger]

very cool

might wish to rethink the risk of having a nut retain the gear and I'll bet you already are...

[Kevin Pharis]

I started with the original pin to retain the gear... and moved to the nut as all modern systems use similar mounting. I retained the key, and intend on using a serrated bellville type lock washer. I don’t suspect I’ll have issues, but have pondered if the nut should be left hand thread...?

[Erik Barrett]

VW oil pump hides inside the engine. You will still want a filter you could keep out of sight inside of a deep sump aluminum pan cover. The Datsun oil pump is a real sanitary setup and makes plumbing the system easy but not period correct.

[Kevin Pharis]

Had some extra time thru the weekend and was able to make up the center shaft for the alternator, and modify the input shaft for the oil pump. After machining a slot in the oil pump shaft I pressed on a collar to prevent the shaft from splaying open under load, and also will have a seal running against the OD. The Datsun pump has an oil squirt hole that is fed by pump pressure to oil the dizzy drive gear. The seal will hold back the oil, and am currently devising a way to scavenge the oil back into the circuit. The magnet ring was also bored out to fit.

A little birdie told me that someone had mounted a similar dynamo to the fan pulley on their T, but was removed as it ran hot and didn’t charge enough. This is concerning... but I will press on! A bit of research shows a near identical dynamo rated at 20A (this one is 14A), so may pick one up to examine the internals. Will also be adding a series of ventilation slots around the housing

I considered the VW pump years ago when I built the engine (the pump and adapter went on to other engines). I chose the Datsun after seeing the internal plumbing hassle of other engines, and others I have encountered loosing their prime. I would have liked to run an original (or built one) gear type pump that was front plate mounted, but the right combination of accessories was never there at the right time. I’m certainly no stickler for authenticity with this car... but certain modern attachments stick out like a sore thumb while others are incognito. The sore thumbs are what I’m lookin to reduce. When the Akron-Hed is running and all is well, I’ll start contrapting my 4 wheel hydraulic drum brakes... that’ll be part trois...

[Les Schubert]

Another option for the oil pump is a flathead V8 pump driven from the back of the camshaft. I have now done it several times and I will share my experience. In my opinion the big plus is that it eliminates any concern about pump priming.

[David Greenlees]

Not all external oil pumps will lose their prime. I made the patterns and had a batch of oil pump covers and this front plate cast in the 1980s and machined the covers and front plates. It can be driven off of the generator shaft, a mag shaft, of any other side-drive shaft. This prototype was extensively tested for 15K miles before any of them were sold. If the pump cover is carefully sealed to the pump casting, it will not lose its prime even after not being used for years. Most of the lower half of the pump always stays full of oil, and the pump will come up to full pressure in less than 3 seconds after starting, which is as good as any modern gear pump will perform.

It is used on both full pressure, pressure to the mains, and recirculating systems. I sold 20 of these systems, and all of the purchasers reported good results; some I'm still in contact with even after over 30 years. I may make up another batch of these someday if I can find the time.

[Kevin Pharis]

The Datsun pump as Eric stated above, is a very sanitary method of adding an oil pump, full flow filter, and a pressure bypass all in a small unobtrusive package. Additionally I like the gearotor impeller design compared to a straight cut gears of typical. Mine has performed flawlessly for 12 years or so, and has never lost prime despite time spent sitting.

My only dislike of the Datsun conversion has been the bushed down genny gear precariously cantilevered off the relatively undersized pump shaft that runs in an un-bushed housing. I fully expect to pull mine and find the gear sloppy on the shaft, and the shaft bore wallowed out. I run a cast iron Melling pump which are of very nice quality, but have a couple aluminum housing pumps here that are of noticeably lesser quality (looser tolerances etc...). I expect that the aluminum pump would have a noticeably shorter life if used in the conventional T conversion method.

Over the years I have considered ways to machine a new pump shaft and adapter that would provide a front bearing support and proper gear interface, so this project is killing two birds with one stone...

[Kevin Pharis]

Had a productive holiday weekend. Didn’t do mutch on Saturday,.. but had the lathe runnin on Sunday, and the mill runnin all day today! I’m at the point where I can test fit the alternator portion, and all looks good! The oil pump adapter is next in the mill, and hope to get started tomorrow evening...

[Kevin Pharis]

Makin progress... but have been taking long breaks as it’s only about 105 in the shop today. Relatively cool compared to the 113 outside! Just a couple short milling operations away from testing

[AndyClary]

What regulates the generator. I was under the impression that PM generators just keep goin and going.

Andy

[Kevin Pharis]

What regulates the generator. I was under the impression that PM generators just keep goin and going.

Andy

That’s next on my shopping list... it will need to be externally mounted, but is relatively small and should be easy to hide in the frame rail. It requires battery + and - as well as ign+

[Kevin Pharis]

Making what I was hoping would be the final fit check this evening, and the alternator with all its guts is fitting great! Did find there was some extra material on the inside of my generator mount that was going to require some minor grinding... but looking at a couple other generator mounts, the clearance issue is limited to the one piece.

Then I put the pump adapter on... don’t know how this slipped thru the design phase...?! I’ll have to take a look at the one on my speedster to see how I routed the ports...

[Kevin Pharis]

Haven’t looked at this ol pump in many years... and don’t remember the suction fitting being this tight against the block (or this dirty!). Apparently, I silver soldered an extended fitting to move the flare fitting below the pan rail and notched the pan for clearance...

[Kevin Pharis]

I have a plan! Was able to move the suction port .625” away from the pan rail. In the pic above, the oil pump adapter plate was slightly rotated, when in the correct position the suction fitting just barely contacts the pan rail. Now there should be plenty of clearance for the tube nut without trimming the pan or building special fittings

I also rigged up my cordless drill to spin the alternator... the drill is rated for 2000 rpm (1325 engine rpm), and the alternator was generating 12.75V AC. Seems promising, but still too early to tell... need to pick up a regulator and try it on an engine!

[Kaiser]

What a neat setup ! I like it

[Kevin Pharis]

Only had a few hours today, so the goal was to complete a testable alternator. I got the air vents machined in the housing, modified the rear housing plate per the revision to the oil pump adapter, and got a rectifier/regular on order.

I made some progress on the revised oil pump adapter plate too… but didn’t make it to the port fittings yet, so can’t test for clearance. The design moves the fitting 5/8” so should have plenty of room for the tube nut now.

More progress and testing will have to wait till next weekend, as work has me traveling…

[Kevin Pharis]

After a week of travel… I was almost immediately struck down with my 2nd (much less intense) round of C19. I’m back on my feet again, and was able to make it out in the shop and do some real important foolin around. I threw the alternator project in the tumbler for a bit, then did a final assembly. I’m lookin to put this in my dad’s car to test while I finish the oil pump adapter… we’ll see if I ever get it back

[Kevin Pharis]

So… a month ago I assembled this darn thing, and the best output I could muster was measured in mA. My dad messed with it, a friend messed with it, I messed with it, 4 regulator/rectifiers were purchased between us all, then I finally broke down and took it to a rebuilder to test. I picked it up today, and he says it charges 14A! Exactly what it should! How could this be…?!

In the meantime, I ordered an OEM dynamo that came in today. I assembled the stator and magnet ring into the extra housing I had built, and it works great! 15.5V 17A at 2000 rpm (1325 crankshaft) with the same regulator/rectifier as used a month ago. The same test with the original dynamo now yields 15.5V 14A. Did it heal itself…?!

I must have rubbed the varnish off of the stator wire and caused a short somewhere during the many assembly tests. Next step is to put it back on a car to prove function

[Kevin Pharis]

Got the alternator final assembled and bolted to the motor last weekend. Tonight’s project was making new oil lines DUN!